TSMG28

The United Specialties drum is 5th generation, and the other is a West Hurley L drum. Many of the West Hurley drums were out-of-spec and/or unreliable. That said, some worked fine. If you can prove it works, it may improve it’s value. I agree with Ldog’s valuation, though the WH will probably have the fewest buyers.

According to Frank in American Thunder III, nearly all of the M1’s and M1A1’s he has cataloged had the 1928 mag catches. I suspect there is no documented date when the production line changed over. I am wondering if most of the mag catches without the drum bump were produced during the extended Thompson production ahead of the M3 switchover, as well as for spare parts that AO continued to manufacture for awhile.

Tom (Hytec), There are no conversion kits available now, and there may not be for some time. There is a list of about 20 people ahead of you who want kits. I can add your name to the list, but as I shared above, I am not certain if or when more kits will be available. I am still trying, but no guarantees.

Inertord, I suspect the screw at the back of the grip mount may be related to the strange foregrip. It is reminiscent of the quick-change barrel modification used by some folks in the U.S. It may be necessary to retain the grip mount for whatever changes have been made to accommodate the vertical foregrip. FWIW...

Not only has the magazine catch been replaced, several other parts also appear to be replaced, including the safety and all of the wood. The buttstock has the typical British mods (swivel relocation and reinforcing screws), and I think I can see an anchor on the front under the slide, which would mean it is a Colt stock. Closer inspection would need to confirm this. The rear grip has either been significantly sanded, and/or is of a very different vintage from the gun. The vertical foregrip is wrong in several aspects, including: the squared-off back, additionally notched for some reason (placed too far back on the grip mount); the front profile, which is severely altered; and the overall appearance. It looks like this may be what we call the slab-side grip common on WH and Kahr guns. Again, closer examination would be required to fully understand what is going on with the foregrip. The overall finish on the magazine catch and safety suggest that they may have been with this gun for awhile, so who knows when or why they were changed.

Since the label on ppgcowboy’s case was printed by IH, I suspect that is why they listed their own halftrack. The key number is the military code of D50268, which connects back to the drawings of this case, and would be the same no matter what vehicle it was listed for. My two cents…

It is unlikely that any of the drums have been “updated”. Potential problems are many: weak and/or short springs in the C drums; faceplates being out of spec and/or misplaced, preventing insertion into a gun, or orienting the drum so that rounds do not feed properly; inside rails not properly installed, causing narrow feed paths which cause feeding problems; and, out-of-spec feed opening in the drum. Updates could address any of the above issues found, and often included replacing the center hub with a hollow hub like original drums (when the springs were replaced). The presence of solid hubs probably means no update on your drums. Some West Hurley L drums did work fine out of the box, so it is worth testing. I know of no WH C drum that works properly. Most Kahr L drums with solid hubs also will not work in full auto guns. Later Kahr L drums with hollow hubs also often have reliability problems. YMMV…

The C drum and 50#1 are both Numrich/West Hurley. Drum 50#2 is a Kahr drum made to the same design as the Numrich drums, but by a different manufacturer selected by Kahr. All three have suspect reliability, so I recommend testing each.

These drums were manufactured circa 2007 for Kahr by their subcontractor Tempco Manufacturing Company. The general consensus among collectors is that the drums numbered under 2600 are reliable. Above that number, reliability is 50/50. Since these drums appear to be used, the owner should be able to vouch for their reliability. The price range quoted above is reasonable, considering that new Taiwan replicas which are generally very reliable are selling right now for $400, plus shipping. The current Kahr price for their C drum is $721. These will be unnumbered and of questionable quality (read possibly/probably not reliable in full-auto guns). Roger

I am the person building kits from the parts recovered from Merle Bitikofer. I was able to assemble and deliver the first 27 kits, and I still have approximately 20 people on the waiting list. The main reason no more kits have been delivered is that Merle’s remaining barrel inserts are out of spec, and I have been sporadically trying to see what I can do to enable them to work. I have also had to arrange for new parts to be manufactured to complete the additional kits. i have not responded to the OP because it is very unlikely that I will be able to fill the current waitlist, let alone add to it. There has been discussion about making new barrel inserts, but the cost of that part alone would likely add a lot more to the cost of a kit. For now, I do not plan to pursue that option. Merle’s design did replace the bottom of the bolt with a steel base, which solved the wear issue in the sear notch (compared to Ciener design), and also adds weight which lowers the cyclic rate. Roger

Deavis, Yes, it is likely that the rear sight and barrel were changed out when it was re-activated. That is also likely the time it was blued. Most DEWAT barrels were welded closed during this timeframe, so were scrap and needed to be replaced when reactivated. As has been mentioned, originally it probably had an unfinned barrel and L rear sight. Congrats on your new toy.

Note that the mags they have are drums, as those were the mags supplied in the tanks. If Sherman’s that would be M4 tanks. M3 tanks could be either the medium M3 Lee or light M3 Stuart. I don’t recall the M3 Lee being used in the PTO, but the M3 Stuart definitely was. Thanks for sharing!

Jake, Congratulations! It makes a nice historical display.

Jake, Nickel was a very valuable metal during the war, so was restricted to specific authorized uses. These mag holes were soldered.

Not common, but not rare either. My book explains the details of all of the mags made for the Thompson. It will be available at the TATA S&S, or on Amazon.

That is an early WWII mag made by Mitchell Stamping for Auto-Ordnance. It is one of two WWII patent date mags made by Mitchell, but this version has an incorrect patent date on the first line. It should be AUG. 24 instead of AUG. 20. If you remove the floorplate, you will find MSCO stamped on the inside of the backstrap.

Devon, In addition to the cards shown in Vol. 8, originals and duplicates are also shown in Vol. 7 starting on page 86, and in my book. It appears that this is a new reproduction version. The alignment appears identical to an original, but the overall size is larger, like the other reproductions. It differs from the alignment of all of the reproductions I have seen. I suspect the card stock is also different from the originals. Not sure when this may have been created, or by whom. If you are coming to the TATA S&S, please bring it along so we can all see it in person. Thanks for posting. Roger

It has now been relisted with the correct price of $299.99. Apparently an Oops! On the original listing. BTW, the wrapping paper does appear to be similar to original Crosby wrapping, though I have not seen five mags wrapped together in this manner before. Anything is possible Nice catch!

Weem0, I agree with all of the comments so far. Based on my past inspection of more than 50 deac Thompsons in Britain between the mid-2000’s and 2016, I suspect this gun came from the Soviet stash in Ukraine. That said, there is no way to prove where it came from. If they were kept intact into Britain, the guns would have had matching trigger frames, but I suspect they entered Britain as parts, handled by jobbers who brought them out of Ukraine. Almost every gun I have inspected from shops in Nottingham to vendors at War and Peace shows have had the serial number ground off the trigger frame and restamped as a forced number match. I don’t recall any that used the S prefix for Savage guns on the trigger frame. Hope that helps.

Richard, Very interesting! The Thompson in the pic is sporting a C-drum, which is interesting if is indeed a 1928, since all of the Auto-Ordnance literature of that time indicated that the C-drum could not be used with the 1928. Of course, we all know it can. I guess A-O was willing to sell any combination the buyer wanted, as long as it made the sale. The gun also has the original vertical foregrip, which it seems was preferred by most users other than U.S. Ordnance. Nice history.

Patrick, I understand your concern about spring damage on your drum. There is a way to add grease to the spring cup to help protect the spring. If you wish to investigate this, I suggest you search this board for references to drum greasing. It is easy to create a drum greasing tool with off-the-shelf (at least in the U.S.) items, and I recall that some of the postings show how to create a greasing setup at home. That said, a number of Thompson enthusiasts have fired many rounds through their WH L-drums for years before the idea of greasing the spring came up, so unless you are firing 1000's of rounds, you should be relatively safe even without greasing. My earlier comment about the rail alignment is easy to check. Just take a cartridge and by hand move it around the body tracks to see if there are any narrow spots. Since you say that 25 rounds feeds without problem, it is possible that there is a narrow spot beyond the 25 round location. Worth a check. Since you wind to the full 11 clicks for 25 rounds, you should be able to do the same for 50 rounds without greater risk to the spring as long as there is not a narrow area of the tracks. In fact, winding to 11 clicks for only 25 rounds actually puts greater stress on your spring. The winding instructions are for a full drum. If you insert only 25 rounds, when the drum is empty, the additional spring tension remaining is unwound suddenly, creating greater stress on the spring. I suggest you investigate how many clicks are necessary to move the 25 rounds reliably, without leaving significant extra spring tension when the drum is empty. All of that said, I agree with Tom that if you can find a WWII drum, that would be preferable. He is correct that the United Specialties (United Air Cleaner plant) drums are historically a perfect fit, but you could also use a Crosby drum with silvered rotor. That would also be correct for your early gun. I wish you luck in your search. Happy shooting!

Patrick, You might also take a look at the alignment of the rails on the inside. There may be a tight spot that you could free up a bit to avoid the drum hanging up. Rails out of alignment was another problem with the West Hurley drums. Roger

Patrick, Yes, weak springs was one of the problems with the West Hurley drums. It was an even bigger problem with their later C-drums. How many clicks are you winding the drum when fully loaded? Roger

Patrick, As you have learned from the responses to your query, you came to the right place for information about your Thompson. Welcome! Your gun was most definitely purchased by the British early in WWII, marked as a military arm, and put into use. How it eventually got to Belgium, was refinished and converted, will likely never be known unless your can track it back from whoever sold it to you. As far as current value in Belgium, it is difficult to say, as most of us on this board are familiar with pricing in other countries. Some dealers in Luxembourg might be able to assist you with current pricing. I believe Luxembourg still allows full-auto Thompsons to be owned. The swivel that is mounted on the top of your buttstock is also a replacement. It is the stamped metal design used on Thompson later in the war, especially the M1A1 models. The original buttstock for you gun would have come with a milled swivel, which the British armorers would have moved to the top and filled in the bottom recess, as was done on your stock. Since the vertical foregrip is a replacement, it is hard to say when or why the holes were drilled on the left side for mounting a swivel. When the British armorers made this modification in 1940+, they installed an offset Enfield swivel on the Savage vertical foregrips. None of the original Savage vertical foregrips came with swivels mounted, as far as I know. The swivel bases of the Enfield swivel are different from the Remington swivel installed on the buttstock, so the hole separation and overall length is different. Enfield swivels have a holes separation of ~1 inch, and an overall length of ~1.5 inches. The Remington swivels have a hole separation of ~1.125 inches, and an overall length of ~1.625 inches. I suggest you measure the hole separation of your buttsock screws and compare it with the hole separation on the foregrip. If the separation is the same, whoever did that was probably planning to install a standard milled swivel. If the separation is different, an Enfield offset swivel would be required there if you ever decide to add one. As has been noted by several other people, your L-drum magazine is modern reproduction sold by Numrich in West Hurley, New York, starting in 1988. Be aware that some of those drums had serious manufacturing defects, preventing them from working properly. Many actually work quite well, at least in semi-auto guns. A few had the faceplates installed incorrectly, preventing the drum from even being inserted into a gun. Hopefully yours inserts properly and feeds your ammo reliably for semi-auto fire. Your latest pics do show your compensator is a Type II, consistent with the period your gun was made. As has been discussed, your magazine catch, selector and safety have all been replaced with later versions at some point. Perhaps this was done during the semi-only conversion by people who did not know the difference. Perhaps whoever did it actually did know the difference, and knew that those early parts are much more valuable, at least in the U.S. market. Pilfering of higher value parts for resale has been common, especially with all of the surplus Thompson that were released from the salt mines in Ukraine in the early 2000's. I am interested in the modification to semi-automatic only. Installing the blocking pin certainly accomplishes the intended purpose of preventing the selector from being moved to full auto. A similar modification was done with some L1A1 and FAL rifles to prevent full auto operation. As Tom Davis noted, I have not seen that before, but it is definitely preferable to welding internal components as is done in some countries. However, I am wondering what happens with your rocker when you disassemble the gun. Standard procedures for full auto guns is to always have the selector in full auto and safety off when removing the trigger frame for cleaning/maintenance. This keeps the rocker lowered to avoid interfering with other components. Since that pin prevents this, do you have any issues with interference when trying to remove the trigger frame from the receiver? Again, welcome to the board, and enjoy your gun. It is part of WWII history, and it is great that at least you get to fire it in Europe, which has become very difficult. Roger

For unknown reasons, nearly all of the V-stamped mags are among those converted for semi-auto guns. Apparently Numrich found and/or imported a bunch of mags from that period. Most conversions were done reasonably well, but some had Bubba involved.