TSMG28

Weem0, I agree with all of the comments so far. Based on my past inspection of more than 50 deac Thompsons in Britain between the mid-2000’s and 2016, I suspect this gun came from the Soviet stash in Ukraine. That said, there is no way to prove where it came from. If they were kept intact into Britain, the guns would have had matching trigger frames, but I suspect they entered Britain as parts, handled by jobbers who brought them out of Ukraine. Almost every gun I have inspected from shops in Nottingham to vendors at War and Peace shows have had the serial number ground off the trigger frame and restamped as a forced number match. I don’t recall any that used the S prefix for Savage guns on the trigger frame. Hope that helps.

Richard, Very interesting! The Thompson in the pic is sporting a C-drum, which is interesting if is indeed a 1928, since all of the Auto-Ordnance literature of that time indicated that the C-drum could not be used with the 1928. Of course, we all know it can. I guess A-O was willing to sell any combination the buyer wanted, as long as it made the sale. The gun also has the original vertical foregrip, which it seems was preferred by most users other than U.S. Ordnance. Nice history.

Patrick, I understand your concern about spring damage on your drum. There is a way to add grease to the spring cup to help protect the spring. If you wish to investigate this, I suggest you search this board for references to drum greasing. It is easy to create a drum greasing tool with off-the-shelf (at least in the U.S.) items, and I recall that some of the postings show how to create a greasing setup at home. That said, a number of Thompson enthusiasts have fired many rounds through their WH L-drums for years before the idea of greasing the spring came up, so unless you are firing 1000's of rounds, you should be relatively safe even without greasing. My earlier comment about the rail alignment is easy to check. Just take a cartridge and by hand move it around the body tracks to see if there are any narrow spots. Since you say that 25 rounds feeds without problem, it is possible that there is a narrow spot beyond the 25 round location. Worth a check. Since you wind to the full 11 clicks for 25 rounds, you should be able to do the same for 50 rounds without greater risk to the spring as long as there is not a narrow area of the tracks. In fact, winding to 11 clicks for only 25 rounds actually puts greater stress on your spring. The winding instructions are for a full drum. If you insert only 25 rounds, when the drum is empty, the additional spring tension remaining is unwound suddenly, creating greater stress on the spring. I suggest you investigate how many clicks are necessary to move the 25 rounds reliably, without leaving significant extra spring tension when the drum is empty. All of that said, I agree with Tom that if you can find a WWII drum, that would be preferable. He is correct that the United Specialties (United Air Cleaner plant) drums are historically a perfect fit, but you could also use a Crosby drum with silvered rotor. That would also be correct for your early gun. I wish you luck in your search. Happy shooting!

Patrick, You might also take a look at the alignment of the rails on the inside. There may be a tight spot that you could free up a bit to avoid the drum hanging up. Rails out of alignment was another problem with the West Hurley drums. Roger

Patrick, Yes, weak springs was one of the problems with the West Hurley drums. It was an even bigger problem with their later C-drums. How many clicks are you winding the drum when fully loaded? Roger

Patrick, As you have learned from the responses to your query, you came to the right place for information about your Thompson. Welcome! Your gun was most definitely purchased by the British early in WWII, marked as a military arm, and put into use. How it eventually got to Belgium, was refinished and converted, will likely never be known unless your can track it back from whoever sold it to you. As far as current value in Belgium, it is difficult to say, as most of us on this board are familiar with pricing in other countries. Some dealers in Luxembourg might be able to assist you with current pricing. I believe Luxembourg still allows full-auto Thompsons to be owned. The swivel that is mounted on the top of your buttstock is also a replacement. It is the stamped metal design used on Thompson later in the war, especially the M1A1 models. The original buttstock for you gun would have come with a milled swivel, which the British armorers would have moved to the top and filled in the bottom recess, as was done on your stock. Since the vertical foregrip is a replacement, it is hard to say when or why the holes were drilled on the left side for mounting a swivel. When the British armorers made this modification in 1940+, they installed an offset Enfield swivel on the Savage vertical foregrips. None of the original Savage vertical foregrips came with swivels mounted, as far as I know. The swivel bases of the Enfield swivel are different from the Remington swivel installed on the buttstock, so the hole separation and overall length is different. Enfield swivels have a holes separation of ~1 inch, and an overall length of ~1.5 inches. The Remington swivels have a hole separation of ~1.125 inches, and an overall length of ~1.625 inches. I suggest you measure the hole separation of your buttsock screws and compare it with the hole separation on the foregrip. If the separation is the same, whoever did that was probably planning to install a standard milled swivel. If the separation is different, an Enfield offset swivel would be required there if you ever decide to add one. As has been noted by several other people, your L-drum magazine is modern reproduction sold by Numrich in West Hurley, New York, starting in 1988. Be aware that some of those drums had serious manufacturing defects, preventing them from working properly. Many actually work quite well, at least in semi-auto guns. A few had the faceplates installed incorrectly, preventing the drum from even being inserted into a gun. Hopefully yours inserts properly and feeds your ammo reliably for semi-auto fire. Your latest pics do show your compensator is a Type II, consistent with the period your gun was made. As has been discussed, your magazine catch, selector and safety have all been replaced with later versions at some point. Perhaps this was done during the semi-only conversion by people who did not know the difference. Perhaps whoever did it actually did know the difference, and knew that those early parts are much more valuable, at least in the U.S. market. Pilfering of higher value parts for resale has been common, especially with all of the surplus Thompson that were released from the salt mines in Ukraine in the early 2000's. I am interested in the modification to semi-automatic only. Installing the blocking pin certainly accomplishes the intended purpose of preventing the selector from being moved to full auto. A similar modification was done with some L1A1 and FAL rifles to prevent full auto operation. As Tom Davis noted, I have not seen that before, but it is definitely preferable to welding internal components as is done in some countries. However, I am wondering what happens with your rocker when you disassemble the gun. Standard procedures for full auto guns is to always have the selector in full auto and safety off when removing the trigger frame for cleaning/maintenance. This keeps the rocker lowered to avoid interfering with other components. Since that pin prevents this, do you have any issues with interference when trying to remove the trigger frame from the receiver? Again, welcome to the board, and enjoy your gun. It is part of WWII history, and it is great that at least you get to fire it in Europe, which has become very difficult. Roger

For unknown reasons, nearly all of the V-stamped mags are among those converted for semi-auto guns. Apparently Numrich found and/or imported a bunch of mags from that period. Most conversions were done reasonably well, but some had Bubba involved.

Also, often the checks will be held until closer to the show dates. That avoids have to issue a refund if someone’s schedule changes between registration and the show. This is true for both TCA and TATA.

I expect them to work well. All of the Taiwan drums, both C and L, have been very reliable.

These are the Taiwan drums. You can tell from the way the faceplates are attached, but because they are being sold by Sarco, there is no GPC on the cover faceplate.

Looks like a Denix.

Counrtyboy77, All of the Colt-era numbered drums, both C and L, were made by John’s Machine and Stamping Works Company in Cleveland, and finished and assembled by Colt’s.

Grease Gunner, I am changing my opinion about the finish on your drum. I inspected two early numbered L drums that are NIB, and their finish is essentially identical to that of yours in the pics. Please take a look at the edge of the body under where the cover overlaps. If that area is blued, smooth, and not grit blasted, it is very likely that your drum is 100% original. Thank you for sharing it with us. Roger

Grease Gunner, Your drum has correctly been confirmed as a Colt-era C drum. It is hard to confirm condition with pics, but it does appear the drum has been refinished. The tells are the finish filling all of the markings, especially the serial numbers, and the uniformity of the overall finish. As noted by others, the insides appear to have been polished to some degree. The rotor appears to be in nice shape Original finish nice Colt C drums have gone for $7000-8000, but I am guessing yours will be less due to the refinish. Actual value will depend on the buyer and how much they want a Colt-era C drum. Good luck.

forindooruseonly, Your drums were all made by Auto-Ordnance when they were owned by Numrich in West Hurley, NY. The one that is actually marked West Hurley, is referred to as an XL drum because it holds 38-39 rounds (not 40 as the name implies). Numrich repurposed and updated the drum Japanese dummy gun company MGC made for their Thompsons. The other two are true L drums that Numrich made starting in 1988. You did not say whether your box mags are 20 or 30 rounds. I am guessing 30, since you say there are a number of Seymour’s. The SWCO mag is made by Sparks-Withington Company. All are from WWII. Your gun is from the same group as some I inspected a few months ago in Britain. As Tom mentioned, it is from the early guns A-O sold directly to the British in WWII. It appears to have all of the characteristics of those guns. Very nice gun! Major congrats!

The knurling on your safety is similar to another early Savage that I inspected recently. The upward diamond with a flattened top is one of the patterns that Savage was apparently experimenting with before they settled on the downward diamond pattern. Of course, eventually they stopped knurling the controls altogether. Having the flattened upward diamond pattern on the same gun with a downward diamond pattern is probably original if it is an early Savage gun.

Forindooruseonly, I will gladly assist with identifying any of your magazines once you dig them out. You can post the pictures here or send them to me directly, whichever you prefer. Definitely take advantage of Tom’s assistance with your FOIA request. The results will be enlightening. Hope to see you next year at one of the show and shoots. You and your history will both be well received. Roger

When Savage started their production, they were experimenting with different styles of knurling on the Selector and Safety. Yes, they did make a couple different diamonds-out style, if I recall, before settling on the diamonds in style later in production. Of course, they eventually dropped the knurling altogether. Tom Davis covers this in one of his books. Also, some smooth WWII controls were modified later with various kinds of knurling, so you can encounter a wide variety of different designs. If not connected to a gun, it sometimes makes it difficult to sort out.

forindooruseonly, The drum appears to be a West Hurley L drum, but more pics would be needed to confirm that. We will need a FOIA to confirm this is a Savage Commercial, but it appears to have all of those characteristics. The recoil spring guide does appear to have a center hole based on the edge radius on the back. Congrats on a very special Savage Thompson.

Hey Folks, A friend is looking for a nice display stand that will hold a replica Thompson with drum magazine. He is buying the gun for a friend as a gift, and would like to add a nice stand for its horizontal display. Of course, he waited 'til the last minute, but if any of you know where he can buy one quickly, please post here or PM me. Thank You! Roger

Robbo, I recovered some tools and the spring material from Merle, and will eventually try to repair springs on drums. That will not occur until sometime next year at the soonest, as I still have a number of .22 conversion kits to manufacture. I do not plan to repair any modern drums initially, preferring to focus on Colt era or WWII drums. The price for modern drums makes repairing those impractical. Roger

As Got Uzi said, it is a grab bag. No way of knowing without opening. Odds favor Seymour, as they made over 12 million XXX mags, and were manufacturing them much longer than the other makers. Second best guess is Crosby, as they made over 5 million (second largest number manufactured). Those two manufacturers are the most often seen XXX mags that are NIW, whether original wrap or rewrap. The asking price of $150 is ridiculous in the current market. Five to ten years from now, perhaps not.

Yes. The original Colt-era drums made by John’s Machine and Stamping Works were all numbered, as were the ones made by Numrich in the early 1990’s. Kahr numbered both sides of their early C drums, starting with their release in 2007. However, that did not last long (around 1100 drums), then they only numbered one side, and later neither side. The reproduction C drums from Taiwan have never been numbered.

The remaining barrel inserts are proving to be a challenge. Most will not fit into a gun, and those that do fit have alignment problems with the bolts. I am working to identify what needs to be changed to solve both problems. Apologies to those on the waiting list for the delays, but I am still trying to get as many kits completed as I can. Given the challenges, I cannot yet provide an anticipated completion date for any of the second list kits. Roger

RANGERRON72, Sig is correct. The only way I know to properly rivet a new pad in place is to disassemble the key completely. You may be able to find a replacement winding key that is correct for the drum. It will have a light grit-blasted finish like the rest of the drum exterior. I don't think the current Kahr winding keys are grit blasted, so that would stand out against the drum cover. Your call. If you want to improve your current lockup, I suggest finding a different screw head with vertical edges rather than the beveled edges of the existing screw head. The locking pad (screw head) should be approximately 0.310" diameter, and approximately 0.100" thick. The latch hole it inserts into should be 1/8" diameter, though that may have been modified by whoever added the current screw. Also, I recommend finding a nut that is slightly thinner to allow more vertical movement of the latch mechanism. IMHO, improving the current makeshift repair is probably preferable to disassembling the entire key, and then having three replacement rivets. The pad for the latch would likely need to be fabricated before being riveted in place, as I have never seen any for sale. You can then keep your eyes open for a correct replacement winding key. You never know when one will pop up. Any of the WWII winding keys that were grit blasted would be close if you cannot find a Worcester key. FWIW