TSMG28

Thanks, PK. The more time I spend with Thompsons, the more I learn. Looks like that safety is a keeper! Have the trigger frames on all of the IMA 1928 kits had their serial number removed and changed? What about the M1A1 kits? Roger

I just received my '28 parts kit, and it is much the same as the others described in this thread. The trigger frame is AO (FULL AUTO on one line), but the serial number has been ground off and replaced with another number like that shown on a trigger frame in an earlier thread. The AO trigger frame and AO grip mount make me believe that this was an AO gun orginally, with many of the other parts being the usual Savage/Stevens. The stock is no-crossbolt, the bolt is bright (Savage), and the actuator is smooth. All is original black oxide finish. There were two interesting items with my kit. First, the safety is checkered, as was done with some of the early safeties. However, it also has the hole in it like the Colt safeties. It is of Savage manufacture, not Colt. I know this modification is often made to a smooth WWII safety at the request of a current owner (I understand PK does a wonderful job of this), but I would not have expected these parts kits to have an owner-modified part. Any opinions on the this?? The second item is a stamp on the left side of the receiver nose (I sure do wish these kits included the back part of the receiver). It is a circle with a line through the middle. In the top semi-circle is the number 38. In the bottom semi-circle is what looks like a monogram with the letters C J K, the middle letter J being larger like a typical monogram. Has anyone seen this kind of stamp before? A grand is a lot of money to be sure, but considering what these parts cost individually, the cost doesn't seem unreasonable. Roger

I strongly agree with all of Nick's recommendations. I do Information Security for a living, and his recommendations are spot on! A quality Anti-Virus program, a full-function personal firewall (Zone Labs has one of the best), and Spyware removal tools are a must if you touch the Internet (and your very presence on this board means you do...). Nick, thanks for the excellent recommendations. Roger

Michael, The markings on the right front of the receiver are indeed the British proofs indicating the inspector (X1) and that it was inspected at Enfield (the sideways E). It appears that the N mark on the left side is partial (not stamped straight on). It could indeed be a British Nitro Proof, as they had several variations of that proof mark. Based on your serial number and the list of guns shipped (from Frank's book American Thunder), it appears that yours was probably made during March 1941 before Lend-Lease took effect. That is consistent with the markings on your gun. I can only hazard a guess on the semi-matching trigger frame. It does appear that the original numbers were ground off and replaced. It is possible that this was done at the factory or by someone that did not recognize the difference between S- and A.O. serial numbers. This is all conjecture. You many never know the true answer. Judging from the uniformity of the finish combined with its pedigree, there is certainly a possibility that this gun has been refinished, though I cannot be certain without direct inspection. There also seems to be an absence of the U.S. rebuild markings, which would imply that if it was refinished, it was not part of a U.S. arsenal rebuild. All in all, you have a beautiful early WWII Thompson that obviously spent time in British servide. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Everything is consistent with that history. Enjoy your good fortune to own this very nice piece of history! Take good care of it. Roger

Bug, According to Frank's excellent book American Thunder, the Savage guns changed from the New York, New York address to Bridgeport somewhere between S-75115 and S-83818. You need to get a copy of Frank's book. It is an invaluable resource for the Thompson collector. Roger

Bill, Your lower may have gone through the "old" deactivation procedure in the U.K. at some time in its life. When I was in Britain recently and looking at deac'd Thompsons, I noticed that some of the lowers had been renumbered. Apparently the reason for this was to make certain it matched the number on the upper since the complete deactivated weapon was treated as a unit and needed to have matching numbers. BTW, the "new"/current deactivation procedures in Britain essentially destroy the lower receiver, so yours is definitely not a recent one. I don't know if your lower went through this or not, but it may be another possible explanation. We all know that many Thompsons had lowers switched as part of repair/rebuild, hence the original mismatch. Congtrats on what sounds like a really nice parts set. Roger

I suggest you get a copy of Frank Iannamico's excellent book "American Thunder" to get a lot more information about your gun. The following info is from Frank's book, but there is much more there that would be of interest to you. The first shipment of Thompsons from Auto-Ordnance began in April of 1940. All of these guns were manufactured by Savage. This was before the Lend-Lease Act, so they were simply marked Model of 1928. The Auto-Ordnance plant in Bridgeport didn't start manufacturing guns until August of 1941, so all guns made prior to that point are Savage. All of the Bridgeport guns were U.S. Model of 1928 A1 because this was after the Lend-Lease Act was passed (March 1941). If you look at the cumulative totals of Thompson shipped by Auto-Ordnance, your gun was probably built in May of 1941 before the Lend-Lease changes went into place. Get Frank's book. It's a wealth of well-researched information. It includes info on the W-Crown (Wilhelmina) markings that went to the Netherlands. Roger

I found a mismatched http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif drum and was wondering what the other members of the board think about the effect on the price. The back, rotor and key are New York 5th generation. The cover is Bridgeport. The back and cover are both 85-90%, but with a couple small areas of surface pitting. The cover may have been refinished, though I can't tell for sure. I have not had the opportunity to fire it to see how it runs, so I can't comment on that. The mismatch obviously affects it value, but how much considering that the majority (and working part) of the drum are NY 5th gen? Any input would be appreciated.

A wonderful time had by all! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif As usual, Tracie and Donna Hill's hospitality was first rate, and the members got a chance to exchange their wealth of knowledge. Big things coming in the next year, so stay tuned. A big thanks to "hawksnest" for providing the message board ID cards. It was enjoyable meeting other board members and putting a face to the name (or pseudo-name). Special congratulations to the first-timers that stole the show, or should I say shoot. May this be the first of many visits, but let some of the rest of us win something next time. Ah, who cares! It is just great to meet, shoot and enjoy the day and the company. For those of you that couldn't make it this year, we missed you and look forward to seeing you next year. Roger

Chris, How would you rate the condition of the drums? One appears to have been repaired or pitted on the cover. I just sent you an Email with the same questions. Roger

PPK, Welcome to the wonderful world of Thompson owners! Once the Thompson bug bites, you are infected forever. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif The GEG stamping is for George E. Goll, the Auto-Ordnance civilian inspector that worked with Savage. That plus the S indicates that your weapon was manufactured by Savage Arms under contract to Auto-Ordnance. American Thunder is an excellent reference, but it does not include what countries received Thompsons before, during or after WWII, so I can't help you on that issue. I highly recommend the book, but I believe Frank has sold out of the copies he had. If you don't want to try eBay, you can try www.ohioordnanceworks.com. Click on the BOOKS link on the left side of the screen. I believe they still have copies available. You appear to have a standard M1A1 with the addition of the front barrel band for additional support of the front grip. Enjoy your find and keep it safe! Roger

Hawksnest, Add TSMG28 to the list as well. Thanks for handling this. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

Arthur, I am certainly not an expert in importation law, but because these parts are not of U.S. manufacture, they are not covered under the Lend-Lease Act which is the source of must restrictions on TSMG parts being imported. Hopefully another member of the board can provide a more definitive statement. As I said before, I haven't spoken with Tracie since April. Based on my conversation with him about these actuators, I agree with you that he probably did not tell Richard that these are Colt parts. My guess is he identified them as being manufactured by someone else (probably BSA) to Colt/Auto-Ordnance specs. I will know for sure in three weeks. Roger

Tracie and I both purchased one of these actuator sets from Richard. Tracie's comment to me was that at the price being asked, it was worth buying one no matter what the pedigree. When I last discussed this with Tracie in late April, he had not had the time to compare these against his collection to help identify them. Perhaps Tracie has since done his analysis and fed information back to Richard, resulting in the information he put on eBay. The "early" reference probably refers to the angle of the front face of the actuator and whether or not it has a vertical groove machined in the face. The actuators that Richard is selling have this groove and I think also have the profile of the earliest Colt-manufactured actuators. That is probably what Richard is referring to in his eBay description, though I must admit it could have been clearer. To his credit, he does not say they are Colt-manufactured. My guess is that he has a lot of money invested in these when he purchased them from a guy in the U.K. (30 total), and he is frustrated that they have not been selling better either via TCN or eBay. Who knows. Though I will let Tracie give the final word when I see him in three weeks, I suspect that these actuators were manufactured by BSA to original Colt specifications. The blueing on my set is very well done, but there are rows of what appear to be buffing marks running longitudinally on the top of the actuator. They are not bold, but they are there. I personally doubt that Colt would have left those marks visible. Just my two cents worth... Tracie spoke highly of Richard and indicated that he has helped do a great deal of TSMG research in Europe. Richard is a long-time member of TCA and in my opinion a credible seller. Roger

Murray, The shop in Nottingham is Michael D. Long, Ltd. I agree with you that we all need to be vigilant trying to locate "surplus" weapons that may appear throughout the world. If any of us find out about weapons that come on the market outside of the U.S., please contact Murray to see if some of the folks in New Zealand can rescue these pieces of history. Roger

I recently visited the shop in Nottingham, England, that I was told received the Russian Thompson shipment. Unfortunately, all of the weapons have been "deactivated" per current British law, which means our babies have been destroyed! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif The only usable parts left on the weapons are the sights, wood, buttstock metal, swivels and screws. Everything else has been welded together, cut and/or pinned. They are selling the deactivated weapons for around USD 800, so there is little incentive to buying one for the remaining parts considering current prices. As parts get more expensive, that may change. It breaks my heart that these weapons were not purchased by someone in a country (like New Zealand) that would not destroy these valuable pieces of history! Needless to say, I was not in a very good mood when I left the shop. It was a long journey back to the States. Roger

Mike, What an exciting and tremendous find! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif And some people think we waste our time bs'ing with folks. As has been said many times in recent years, if you know a vet or the family of a vet, talk with them. It is often amazing to hear the special stories they have to share. Your experience is even more special considering yours and our interest in things Thompson and how long ago much of this took place. Thanks for saving this special part of history! We all look forward to seeing the whole paper. See you next month at Tracie's. Roger

Nick, I voted NO because, as others have said, I think a board for each model would be difficult for you and us. However, I can see value to separating the FA and SA posts. I tend to check everything anyway, but my prime interest is FA at this time.