TSMG28

John, I expect your current mags will work with Merle’s kit, since his design is an improvement on the Ciener design. However, the drum adapters are different. They are machined metal mounts designed and produced by Merle that bolt onto a slightly modified Black Dog PPS50 drum so that it locks in place using the normal mag catch. Because this mount partially covers the manual winding slot on the drums, Merle also created the tooling and technique for extending that winding slot. I recovered that tooling and will be able to perform this adjustment in the future. We found a couple of the box mag adapters that you described, but as you noted, those were cut from original Thompson magazines. I will add a pic of the drum mount in the next day or two.

Today we were able to test a newly-assembled bolt with two different completed barrels in both an M1 and 1928 NAVY. The tests were overall very successful, but we did identify some minor magazine-specific failures. We also have a program tested successfully to machine the ejector groove in the incomplete barrels recovered from Merle's shop. Now, the plan is to perform all of the machining necessary on the barrels, including the groove, chamber, and alignment tab. Then the barrels, actuator assemblies, and bolt noses will be blued. Finally, the ejector will be installed and tigged in place on each barrel. Though we have all of the bolt components, each bolt assembly requires custom fitting of each part. Finally, each kit will be tested for overall reliability. At this point, it is looking like the final price for a conversion kit will be $1200-1300. We will be able to finalize the cost once we get the final quotes for the work needed to complete each kit. Merle’s family will be receiving a significant portion of the net proceeds. We have both box and drum magazines, but all of the box mags need to be re-assembled, because Merle always modified the original follower for more reliability. We have a limited number of drum adapter mounts for the Black Dog drums that we have, but those mounts can be moved between drums when shooting until we are able to arrange to make more adapters (unknown lead time). Dan will be able to supply the modified Pietta PPS50 metal drums. We were able to recover Merle's tooling to extend the cocking area of the Black Dog drum magazines, so that service will be available once tested. Limited spare parts may be available once we have completed the first group of complete kits. Merle's standard procedure was to require components to be returned to him for repair. We have not yet determined if that process will be continued. I will be replying via Email to all people that have contacted me about a kit or parts. Roger

The biggest I have seen used are the 50-round drums. There are two versions of that: the Black Dog plastic PPS-50 drum with added mount adapter (bolt-on, made by Merle in metal and Dan in delron) and slight modification to the feed tower; and, the metal Pietta PPS-50 drum with added mount (welded on, Dan does this work).

The Thompson looks like a fake or prop gun. The barrel is heavy barrel style, but short. The front sight, foregrip, and drum also look different/wrong. Great staged pic!

Wagner, Nearly all drums were blued. Some were also grit-blasted before bluing, and others were smooth. The first Crosby drums ordered by the British were painted black. All later orders from U.S. Ordnance were blued. Your drum was made by United Specialties in Chicago for Auto-Ordnance, circa early 1941. The cover is 4th generation, and the body is 5th generation, a mismatch commonly encountered, as both generations were made at the same time.

Like many others, I have been struggling to find the right words to express my shock and deep sorrow at Mike's passing. Anything I say will pale in comparison to the wonderful man he has been. He was a great friend, and dedicated to his family. He always had a smile, and engaged in his many interests and projects with great passion and his brilliant engineer's mind. I will miss our many discussions on Thompsons, firearms in general, cars, and any other topic that popped in as we talked. Mike had so much to offer all of us, and he shared himself easily, with joy and a positive energy that was infectious. He will be greatly missed!! Rest In Peace, my friend. Roger

SparksNArcs, The U.S. supplied Tokarev magazines to Russia during WWII, made by Mitchell Stamping for Auto-Ordnance, by Sparks-Withington, and by Seymour Products. Although I have not seen specific documentation showing that we supplied Tokarev barrels as well, Auto-Ordnance was developing other caliber Thompson barrels during the war, including 9mm Parabellum and, given the Tokarev magazines, possibly 7.62x25 as well. The 7.62x25 solutions were then provided to the Chinese by Russia, and the Chinese then adapted the guns to use the later PPSh-43 magazines, which were plentiful. See pps. 438-442 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. Your barrel does not look like it came from the Chinese. Those barrels that I have seen tend to be more crudely made. Also, the way the fins are cut looks more like recent reproductions. Are there any manufacturer or ordnance markings on your barrel? Either way, congratulations on your find. If you do ever decide to create a Thompson that fires 7.62x25, be aware that if you use the PPSh-43 magazines, you will need to modify the bolt to allow for clearance of the magazine feed lips, as well as reducing the case hard size, often done by brazing. I doubt you will be able to use the original U.S.-made Tokarev mags, as they are very hard to find and generally expensive.

The drawing indicates that this screw is 0.073-72-NF-2. I believe that equates to a #1-72 screw. I removed that screw from a sight, and checked it on a test template that I have. It tested as #1-72. The threaded length is ~1/8 inch. Hope that helps. As to where to find one, I have no idea. But at least you now know what to look for. Roger

2ndArmored, These drums were originally designed and made by MGC to feed cap-firing cartridges into their cap-firing reproduction guns. Those cap-firing cartridges are slightly smaller diameter than a standard 45ACP cartridge, and also much lighter in weight, since they did not have a 230g projectile sitting on top. There are little tabs that stick out from the rotor body to push the rounds around the outer the drum to the feed lips. Numrich updated the spring and eventually the feed lips to feed their live guns, and they stuffed as many live rounds as would fit in the available space. That is often 38 rounds, though it varies depending on the condition/orientation of the pusher tabs. In keeping with the Roman Numeral designation for drums, Numrich labeled them as 40-round drums (XL), but they actually hold less than 40. Hope that helps your math.

There is no way of knowing what actually took place with that gun. However, I do know this can happen if you don’t tighten a new barrel properly. One time, I quickly installed a new barrel before a shoot, obviously not properly, and it unscrewed several times during the shoot. Afterward, once I properly tighten the barrel, which was past the alignment line, I never had any problems with it. YMMV

Richard, I have not seen this before, and the wrap appears to be redone at some point, but there have been many different repack combinations over the years. Probably no way to determine when this was done if not labeled.

Jerry, I will be happy to assist you with market value of your drums. Pictures will help. You can either post them here or send them to me at roger.herbst@att.net. It appears you are referring to Tracie’s American Legend book. He has since published The Ultimate Thompson Book, and is working on volumes 3 and 4 of The Thompson Encyclopedia. In addition, last year I published my Thompson Submachine Gun Magazines book. The later books have more information and pics. Roger

It appears that someone has stripped the finish, buffed the surface, and re-blued the drum. The noted pitting is a clue, as are the rounded off tops of stakes in several places, and the uniformity of finsh. Looks pretty and shiny, but not original. All of the United Specialties drums were originally grit blasted before being blued. That gives them that rougher finish similar to parkerizing. Seymour drums were not grit blasted, so they are smooth and shiny out of the box. Roger

Bob, Your drum that Doug called a “Savage” is actually the first version United Specialties drum with the New York address on the body. No connection to Savage, but it was made around the time that Savage started producing the Thompsons. In good condition, it’s value is probably $1,000-$1,200. Roger

Louke, Many years ago, I observed a large number of Thompsons in Britain that had been deactivated (old standard) and were for sale. Nearly all of them had their trigger frame numbers force matched to the receiver. I am guessing this was done per local laws for commercial reasons. Some of the original trigger frame numbers were stamped out, some were ground off, some were still intact. Although this forced matching may have been done in other countries, my observation is that the U.K. was the most common place for this to have been done. It also often included a refinish of the gun when reassembled for sale. As noted in this thread, a lot of Thompson parts, including complete trigger frames, were also imported into the U.S. and sold by dealers such as Omega (Don Bell). Some of these trigger frames will show their original numbers, but some will also show ground-off or otherwise modified numbers. Since your gun is still intact, albeit with a mismatched trigger frame, it may or may not have spent time in Britain. Either way, a very nice looking gun and still fully operational in an environment (the EU) where firearms and their accessories are under attack as evil (note the recent magazine ban). Congratulations for helping to maintain a historical weapon! Concerning your question about the bolt, It appears to be an original nickel-steel bolt, often referred to by collectors as a "bright" bolt, that would be correct in your gun. It probably has not been "refreshed". Those bolts tended to hold up well under use and age. From what I see of you gun, it appears to be a nice original lend-lease 1928A1. As noted by others above, do not worry about the trigger frame mismatch. That was very common with WWII Thompsons, both 1928's and M1's. Thank you for sharing.

SP Sarge, As I noted in another recent thread, many of the V-marked mags were converted by Numrich for their semi-auto guns. Remember, back in the 70’s, nobody recognized or cared about the V stamp on these mags. They were among surplus mags that Numrich bought by the thousands for their full-auto and later semi-auto guns, and sold them for a few dollars each. Certainly, Numrich could have modified their magazine catches instead of the mags, but then customers could buy their mags from other people. MAC played the same game by slightly modifying M3 mags for their M-10 45ACP guns. This allowed them to sell their mags, much like Numrich had done. As Phil said, it is still nice to own this little piece of history. At least yours has the V at the bottom. That is less common than those marked at the top.

Yes, Bob, these are simply standard XXX mags that had the V stamp added to some by each of the manufacturers, probably during part of 1942 production. We don’t have any specific information about how many of the mags produced were marked with the V. Around 5-10 years ago, I would typically encounter one or more at a number of different gun shows, including SAR, and of varying finish quality. Prior to that, most people did not pay any attention to the V stamp. Once more Thompson collectors started paying attention to them, the mags started to disappear from the shows, and are probably squirreled away in collections. Not rare, but not commonly found in recent years. For some reason, a lot appear to have been modified by Numrich for their semi-auto guns back in the day. Perhaps they bought a pile of them from overseas. No way to know. Roger

Based on what I have seen, a great many of the V mags were modified by Numrich for their semi-auto guns. For those of you who have V mags, please check your stash and let me know if they have the semi mod or are unmodified. Thanks.

Bob, Mike is correct about the price on the second drum. It is also a mismatch - Seymour body and United Specialties cover. The key also looks like it doesn’t match, but appears from the pics to be WWII. ReconOrd is selling the first drum, and their asking prices are always way above market. That drum is likely from the Ukraine stash, and is probably parts from two different Seymour drums. The rust and pitting on the cover does not appear to be present on the body. Some of those drums were seriously damaged from poor storage, so sellers back in the day mixed and matched parts to get sellable drums. I would consider this a shooter grade Seymour worth less than half of what is being asked. As far as general pricing is concerned, there have not been a lot if WWII drums for sale recently. In general, prices have gone up a bit on the last year or two. WWII drums in good condition used to sell for $450-550 regularly. Recently, when they do sell, it is generally in the $550-650 range, +/- based on condition or rarity. Hope that helps. Roger

The magazines are for a cap-firing Thompson replica made in Japan by MGC. The foregrip also looks like an MGC, so I am guessing the comp and sight are also MGC. We would need more detailed pics of the comp fir a better analysis.

The price for L drum #744 is beyond my understanding. My best guess is that someone has gun #744, and wants that drum to match, so they were willing to pay whatever they needed to get it. The other numbered drums in the same auction went for prices more in line with what most feel is market.

From what I can see, the comp looks like a correct Type 1. The port cuts and sharp back edge look right. The barrel fins do look more square edged than we are used to, but there is definitely variability among barrels, and pics can also be deceptive. FWIW Can you spin off the comp and measure the diameter of the threads? That should settle one of the question TD has.

The CO inside a C is indeed a Crosby Company mag. The other Auto-Ordnance mag is was made by United Specialties for A-O.

I previously owned a WWII vet bringback 1928A1 with the reinforcing band. Someone had made a replacement grip mount to get the gun back into action, but it was not as strong as an original mount, so they added the reinforcing band. You could tell from the foregrip that the band had been in place for a long time. I suspect this was an exceptional situation, as it is the only example I have seen on a 1928.

My guess is that it is a post-war effort by someone who wanted to shoot 9mm Parabellum out of their Thompson. With the proper bolt, barrel, and mags, this has been done. The UD42 mags work well in a 9mm Thompson, but they are expensive and not very common. Since Numrich and Ciener inserted a .22LR conversion inside a standard WWII .45ACP mag body to feed their .22LR guns and conversions, someone may have tried the same thing with a Beretta 38 mag for 9mm. I do not know of any documented effort by Germany or Italy to do this, but you never know for sure with all things Thompson, especially the magazines, as noted in my book.