TSMG28

Dink, I respectfully disagree with your last statement. If the rotor spins excessively when the drum empties, it puts stress fatigue on the internal spring attachments. Too much of this stress causes the spring to break. This is probably the most common cause of spring breakage in drum magazines. If you use the method of emptying the drum by removing the cover while the rotor is under spring tension, as mentioned ahead of Colt Choppers warning, and your hand slips or you lose control of the rotor, there are edges inside that can cut you. I have seen it happen. I do agree that using your method to empty a drum is much safer, but believe it or not, some drums have sharper feed lip edges, and you can still cut your thumb or finger if not careful. Not common, but possible.

The unmarked 30 round mags are likely the current ones from Kahr. Theirs have both ends of the backstrap edges welded over rather than open like all Colt and WWII mags. If you have Kahr mags, the hole will be round, but it will still be located for the semi guns, in the same wrong place as those with the oval hole. Any mags intended for use with Kahr or West Hurley semi-autos will not work properly in standard full auto guns. Go with WWII 30 round mags with the round mag catch hole and clean interior, with only a light coat of oil. They should work fine.

Dan, From your experience, do the Ciener mags work with Merles conversion kit?

Dan, Agreed. Working up a load make sense. Unfortunately, you are probably on your own for where to start, as I don't think there is any Remington-Thompson load data... You may find that the adhesion of the Blish lock still works at the higher pressures for the Win Mag. Based on tests Eickhoff and Payne did with the Autorifle, you actually may find that you do not need a stronger spring. And those tests were with 30.06 rounds. StrangeRanger, I agree with your thought process. I am not certain how they got the published velocity with a 250g bullet for the Remington-Thompson within that pressure curve. But then, I wasn't there and don't know what kind of powders they were using. Was that the goal, but they didn't actually attain it? Who knows. I doubt that the results of the Hercules tests are available anymore. Interestingly, the whole development of the .45 Remington-Thompson and the previous tests of higher velocity from lighter weight bullets all ended with the same result. They were less accurate than the .45ACP beyond 300 yards, and they eliminated the interchangeability of the ammunition with 1911's. All of this is reported in TUTB. Will Dan's test of the .45 Win Mag show anything different? Only time and a lot of testing will tell.

Since Dan is interested in the bolt and I am interested in the magazines, you may have an easy sale if you want to sell.

Even though I have not been able to lay eyes or hands on the .351WSL Thompson in France, I would love to do so someday. As to Richard's question about the magazines, I assume that any magazines with the gun are prototypes. Essentially all of the different magazines I have seen that were produced for the .30 Carbine light rifle effort are prototypes. Since no standard production guns were made in either caliber, I doubt there are any standard production magazines for either as well. I have discussed the size of the .351WSL round with several members of this forum. As mentioned above, it is notably longer than the carbine round, so there is little doubt in my mind that a receiver for this caliber would need to have a much longer opening for the magazine. What does the magazine look like? No idea, but I suspect it is a double feed style rather than the single feed of the Winchester 1907 rifle, which is the only production gun in this caliber. I do not believe that those earlier single stack magazines would have been used in the Thompson. Possible? Yes. Likely? No. Those magazines have to fit very tightly into the receiver of the 1907 to ensure positive feeding. I don't see A-O trying to work around those existing magazines. Also, here in the U.S., most of the 1907 magazines are either 5 or 10 rounds. I understand that the French had Winchester make a 20-round version for them for their use in WWI aircraft, which I suspect is why the French asked for a Thompson in .351WSL. Unfortunately, I have not been able to see or acquire one of the 20-round 1907 magazines. According to Leonard Speckin, who wrote an excellent book in 2012 on the Model 1907 and .351WSL, Hawk Bullets, who make a true .351 projectile for this round, sold 20,000 bullets to France in one year, and continue to sell around 4,000 bullets per year to France. Apparently, shooters in France still love their .351WSL.

The magazines and bolt look to be from a West Hurley .22LR conversion kit. The XXX style mag may also be West Hurley, but I need a closer look at the top feed area to be sure. You appear to be missing some of the bolt parts and the mag adapter that is used with the banana mags.

StrangeRanger, The .45 Remington-Thompson was supposed to drive a 250g bullet at 1450 fps out of the longer Model of 1923 barrel.

I have personally examined this gun and can confirm that the internals are all standard 1921. For the Remington-Thompson cartridge, that was likely sufficient. Dan, Given that the pressure of the .45 Win Mag is twice the .45 ACP, and the energy is 3-4 times higher, I would be VERY cautious using the Win Mag. If the adhesion of the lock works and can stand the force, it might work just fine, but consider how careful Eickhoff and company were when they were testing the original design. The additional force could also do serious damage to the lock.

From Suttons article mentioned by gijive above: Sile Grip Company was one of the better examples of the reproduction grip makers from the mid-1960s into the mid-1970s. Sile made at least three different production runs of grips; some were marked SILE, some werent, some were made using the Colt pattern of grip while others were patterned on the Savage grip.

We have documentation indicating that 5000 of both C and L drums were originally made by Johns for Auto-Ordnance. Gordon recorded the numbers of drums. The highest C drum he recorded was 4998. The highest L drum he recorded was 4184. Tracie noted in Ultimate that 535 C drums were shipped to the IRA by the first ten weeks of production, which means that 11% were already out of the country.

I strongly suspect that the previous owner had something to do with the price. The most significant factor is probably three different active bidders. A situation similar to the horrendously overpriced Colt several years ago in Tuscarawas County. If there is more than one person who really wants something, prices can get crazy.

Dave, Misaligned faceplates and/or out-of-spec rails are well-known problems with the West Hurley drums, both C and L. The problem is, you never know whether you will get a good one or a bid one. Unfortunately, there are also sometimes issues with later Kahr C drums and it is looking like now the later Taiwan C drums.

Canuck, Yes, that is a West Hurley X drum. In addition to the deactivation, it appears to have been refinished. Contrary to Rust's guess above, I just want to display it as well. Hardly worth messing with a drum to load only ten rounds. Thanks for sharing.

Stampcollector, No, those XL drums were the first semi-operational drums sold by Numrich. These drums were actually made by MGC for the MGC toy Thompson cap guns, and remarketed by Numrich. Im looking for the X drum Numrich/West Hurley created during the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994-2004. Numrich sold Auto-Ordnance to Kahr in 1999, and Kahr has continued making the drum due to a number of states that still limit mags to 10 rounds.

Dan, Unfortunately that is a Kahr. All Kahr drums have a very distinctive spot welding pattern to them (e.g., three spots on one side at the top of the back faceplate). Kahr drums also have flat rivet heads like yours. Thanks for looking. Roger

Anyone out there with a West Hurley "X" drum they want to part with? I am not interested in the Kahr version, only the West Hurley. You would think I have enough drum magazines, but..... You can post here or PM me if interested. If you are uncertain which version you have, I can help you sort it out. Thanks. Roger

Ill take the bolt knob!

Thanks to everyone for your input. Merle certainly did beautiful work. He is a great craftsman and person, and he always produced a quality product. Love his nickel rotors. Certainly adds style to a C-drum. Unless I hear from someone else, the highest reported number is 2314. Therefore, I am guessing that Numrich probably had 2400-2500 made in their initial run. The combination of poor quality and the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994 pretty much doomed any future runs by Numrich, that is until their latest GPC offering. Again, Thanks! Roger

Mike, Thanks. I spoke with Merle, and he said he does not have a list of the serial numbers he worked on. Unfortunately, Merle has just shut down emotionally and doesn't really want to think or talk about all of the wonderful Thompson work he did over the years. Maybe some day we will find his list. So far the top number is 2314. Can anyone top that? Roger

I am trying to determine approximately how many of the West Hurley C drums were produced. The best way I know is to find the highest number on the drums. For those of you who own these drums, please provide me with the serial number. Feel free to PM me if you want to maintain privacy. I will not share the information without your permission. Thanks in advance for your help. Roger

Rust, The screws in the buttstock are the British solution to stocks splitting. Their solution predated the crossbolt reinforcement. I cannot see the swivel on the buttstock, but I am guessing it was also moved to the top, British style. The movement of the foregrip swivel is also typical British. By the time this gun was made, the Brits often reused the Remington foregrip swivel, like this one. Those swivels were placed at different places on the side of the foregrip, so this one is probably British as well. I do not know what the additional stamps mean. The actuator is smooth, which may or may not be correct in this serial number range.

Scottie, As others have noted, the foregrip is definitely a post-war reproduction. The British did install swivels on the vertical foregrips, but they were installed with the base horizontal just under the top ridge. You can find them installed on either the left or right side. Also, the swivel installed on your grip is a stamped U.S. swivel. Those did not appear on Thompsons before the M1s. The British used Enfield offset swivels for the vertical foregrips. I also agree that the lower serial number is force matched. I am not certain the one crossed out (265326) is the original or not. I have seen a large number of Thompson lowers in the UK with more than one serial number, and none of them original. That said, do not worry about the non-matching lower. You have a nice gun there and should enjoy it. The upper is a great low Savage serial number before lend-lease, and I suspect all of the parts are original, with the obvious exceptions created by the deactivation (like the smooth actuator). Thank you for sharing your gun with us.

Yes, I have two 07s that could use a nice appropriate case. Sounds like plenty of interest right here.

Huggytree, 1921A nailed it. The one mag I can see is a Crosby which appears to have the front of the feed area ground off. I dont recall seeing the top dipped on all such modified mags, but it makes sense that some could have received this treatment. Some Crosby XX mags also had an exaggerated front lip. The second and third version Crosby XXX mags corrected the problem in manufacture.