HANS

Thanks, another one for the list! Cheers HANS

Thanks David, I've read that of course. I've also read the accounts in Swearengen's THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHOTGUNS and TEAR GAS MUNITIONS. Unfortunately, none of these accounts deal with production figures or serial numbers. As I said, the serial numbers I've seen so far suggest a much more substantial production than I thought, but there could be other explanations -- for example, the serials could include those of the M512 revolvers or some such. Cheers HANS

I've never seen production numbers for the Manville Gas Guns in 12-gauge and 25mm. I found serial numbers for the latter between No.787 and No.2017, which suggests a pretty substantial production for a weapon that nobody seems to have used (except for two National Guards and a couple police departments, as far as I can tell). I've even seen No.33322, but I'm assuming that's a mistake or some other special case. I haven't seen a single number for a 12-gauge gun. So what gives? Does anyone have more information? Failing that, does anyone have additional serial numbers that would allow us to form an opinion as to likely production totals? Many thanks! Cheers HANS

The scene in The Public Enemy where the burst takes off the edge of a brick wall shows two belt-fed Vickers guns (presumably Colt M1915), as seen here, but as you can see in the next clip, narrated by Cagney, they actually used a Model 1921A for that. Cheers HANS

Thanks for mentioning this event. Unfortunately I'm only looking at May next year, so Big Sandy is out. I may go to Ohio instead though, any suggestions there? Many thanks! Cheers HANS

Thanks Ron! I had originally planned to fly out to Missouri and check out some outlaw items and pay an extended visit to Ozark Machine Guns, but since Tyler's range seems to be closed I've been looking at other options. I'm thinking Las Vegas might be fun overall (even though I neither drink or gamble), there are a couple of machine gun ranges with nice rentals, some of the desert trips look cool, the Punk Rock Museum seems interesting, and while I'm there I might as well check out the Mob Museum. If they actually have the complete Goddard collection, it might be worth inquiring about seeing the non-SVDM stuff as well. Cheers HANS

Is it any good? Especially concerning guns. I heard the Goddard collection ended down there via Neal Trickel, correct? The entire collection or just the SVDM bullets? Would someone know? Many thanks! Cheers HANS

No. 8251 was not stolen by the Barker-Karpis Gang from responding officers outside the Post Office in 1933; Roger Cox claimed that in his book but he was wrong. They took No. 7679. Cheers HANS

Yes. I also have a third number that probably ended up with them. Frank Thompson later claimed that he had supplied as many as six Thompson guns to that gang, but I think that was at best an inflated boast. Cheers HANS

Fire away, either in this thread or in a private message. Thanks! Cheers HANS

All the box magazine conversions date to 1930 or later, since Haenel did not start making them until October 1930. Even if we didn't know this, the serial numbers alone prove it, since we find box conversions throughout the range. The interesting thing I discuss is that the M.P.18,III (and probably also the M.P.18,II and definitely the M.P.18,IV, and probably the M.P. Schmeisser I, the forerunner of the M.P.28,II) all have a box magazine, but a different one than the converted M.P.18,I, one that uses a double feed. I discuss its origins and likely timeframe in the article. Cheers HANS

'fraid so Indeed, one of the questions I address is the theory that the weapon was originally intended for a box rather than the drum. I think I make a reasoned and well-supported argument (and obviously the editors agreed) that no, it wasn't, but truthfully we still don't know for certain -- very, very few original documents from that timeframe have survived the two wars ... Cheers HANS

Thanks Rekraps! Cheers HANS

My article on Hugo Schmeisser’s early submachine guns, that is the Bergmann M.P.18,I through M.P.18,IV and the SIG-Bergmann M.P., has now been published as the latest issue of ARMAX is shipping. In this, I’m tracing the curious designation of the original pattern, the M.P.18,I, and follow the evolution of the design, debunking a number of other theories trying to explain it. I’m also tracking the production through serial numbers and try to establish that there were probably a few more of the weapons manufactured than is often claimed. Cheers HANS

Over the course of my research on gangster gats, I've collected over 100 serial numbers of Colt Thompson guns that were used by gangsters (including bankrobbers etc) of the 1920s and 1930s; in many cases, I have extensive histories, in some only the mere fact that a certain gun was used by criminals. I also have some negatives, that is guns that were supposedly used by gangsters but probably weren't. Since I'm still looking to publish my complete data at a later point, I'm not prepared to put all this on the internet, but if you have a gun and would like to have it checked against my list, I'd be happy to accommodate you. Cheers HANS

Ah, I missed that. No, the 25-rounders were not welded together 10-rounders like the 20-rounder displayed in the Cody Firearms Museum (and seen in most photos on the web). They were professionally made by an unknown gunsmith, with a seemless body, in the article I show several period photos as well as a modern photo graciously provided by USMC0802 of this very site. Cheers HANS

You are right, (probably) nobody in modern times has fired a full-auto Winchester Model 07, I certainly didn't. All the actual conversions mentioned in the article aren't available for that. However, as early as 1909, Franklin Knous of Winchester patented a full-auto conversion, clearly thinking there was some potential there. We probably all have read about the selective-fire Model 07s that were supposed to have been used by the French military in WWI, although I personally think that those didn't exist (I've never seen a French source on this) and that the flimsy evidence for them is ambiguous. You are probably also right that the things had a good kick and weren't very controllable on full-auto (although I do note that the original-calibre conversions had a Cutts compensator and a foregrip, both of which surely help in that regard). Then again, we've seen millions of H&K G3s, FN FALs, Springfield M14s etc, all firing a more energetic cartridge and lacking said comp and grip, being reasonably effective (though it is telling that many of these patterns were converted to semi-only even in military service). None of these conversions were selective-fire, they only had full-auto. However, all of this misses the point. The bank robbers of the 1930s didn't look for tight groups. They needed "machine guns" for daylight heists in an era in which most of the rural towns they targeted had well-organised vigilante organisations. At that point, Thompsons were scarce and expensive. These conversions were cheaper, they looked aggressive, and they fired bursts. That's all they needed to threaten bank employees or hose down innercity streets in order to keep down the heads of vigilantes and traffic cops. As to whether the whole thing was historically significant -- I guess it wasn't. There were all of four of the .351-calibre ones and perhaps eight of the 9-mm guns. But that isn't the question, because clearly they are historically interesting. People look at the famous displays of the Dillinger Gang weapons and go; "What's THAT?" People like Sandy or me actually tried to find out what that is. Others build replicas, because they simply look cool. Heck, there was one in the Public Enemies film by Michael Mann. Further, it is interesting in light of how people try to circumvent a dearth of a commodity (ie, Thompsons), and how far the grey market in the 1930s did spread guns (check out the article to read about all the different gangs, I really think that is fascinating). PS I've got another article slated for publication that deals with the Bergmann M.P.18,I, as long as we talk about that 😉 Cheers HANS

Ah, you haven't read the article 😉 I discuss possible rate of fires, including a quote from a (different) factory conversion at Winchester. I also show that most of these guns weren't used with the puny 10-rounders, but either with 25-round boxes or, in case of the 9-mm conversions, with 25-round drums. Cheers HANS

Thanks, high praise! Good that it all worked out. The format is a bit small to my liking, but I gather that it is the format of the original ARMAX journal and they decided to stick with it. Yeah, seeing these things up close, handling them or even firing them would be interesting, but is unlikely. I had approached the FBI Firearms Curator years ago, he couldn't even comment. I am unsure whether the FBI still displays one of the guns in their museum in DC, but even if they do, foreigners like myself aren't invited. Also, most of the FBI samples won't fire any more, they nearly always deactivated them. The conversion still in Tuscon can at least be oggled to the best of my knowledge, but Tucson is a bit out of the way ... Those 9-mm conversions sure look cute, I agree. Would be interesting to see how they handle without the stock, they don't look that unbalanced without the mag. The drum, of course, is an ergonomical abomination just like it was on the original Luger l.P.08 and even on the Bergmann M.P.18,I. Cheers HANS

I've talked to the publisher and they actually do offer individual articles. You can buy this one as a PDF for $20. Talk to Caitlin Fitz Gerald at Helios House (caitlin@helios.house). As to the peer review process, this doesn't mean that the folks who reviewed the article are necessarily knowledgable about the specific topic (in this case, the Winchester conversions and the specific gangs who used them) -- if they were, they could have written the article. What they bring to the table is usually different, but relevant knowledge. For example, one of the reviewers was the curator of the Cody Firearms Museum, who not only knows everything about the regular Winchester Model 07, he also knows where to find specific references in their archives (production figures, patents, trial designs, etc). And in the end, there's several layers of editorial oversight, which ensures that the article is easy to read (that includings spelling and punctuation), that the information is presented in a logical and complete way, that the sources are correct, and so on. Cheers HANS

Individual issues cost $55, which is still a lot but not $100. You can get them from Headstamp, who do a lot of marvelous books and sell all the ARMAX back issues. I don't think they offer individual articles for sale. You can view the table of contents of this issue (Vol.VIII No.2) here. ARMAX was the house magazine of the Winchester Museum in the 1980s and 1990s, with editor Herbert Houze. It has recently been revived, now by the Cody Firearms Museum but with a wider purview, with several European museums and international experts on board. It differs from other firearms magazines in using double blind peer reviews (ie, like in other scientific publications, the articles are checked by several subject matter experts who do not know the author and thus check them without personal bias). I can tell you that the article is the culmination of at least 10 years of research, featuring many new discoveries and hitherto unseen photos (that is, unseen in the books and articles available on the topic so far). As to the laws, I've got these from several legal articles as well as from many period articles as part of my ongoing research of the firearms use in the 1920s and 1930s. Cheers HANS

I do, because the legal situation, among other things, led to "regular machine guns" (ie, Thompsons) becoming scarcer on the open market. Eventually, Auto-Ordnance shut down all trade except with the military in 1930, and when they started selling to non-military buyers again, in 1932, they were much stricter about their buyers, having everything go through Federal Ordnance. As Thompsons became more difficult to get, discriminating buyers like all the gangs I mention in the article started to look elsewhere. This is when the conversions showed up. And of course they continued to be used after 1934 ... Cheers HANS

Actually, a number of states made "machine guns" illegal before that, including California (1927), the District of Columbia (1932), Illinois (1931), Indiana (1927), Iowa (1927), Kansas (1933), Massachusetts (1927), Michigan (1927), Missouri (1929), New Jersey (1927), New York (1931), Ohio (1933), Pennsylvania (1929), Rhode Island (1927), West Virginia (1925), Texas (1933), Virginia (1933), Washington (1933), and Wisconsin (1933). Also, the article is not only about the conversions themselves, but their users. Every single one of them was seized from a bank robber, kidnapper, or armed thief. Cheers HANS

I am pleased to announce that my article on converted Winchester Model 07s used during the 1930s by the likes of the Dillinger Gang, Barker-Karpis Gang, Rettich Gang, etc, etc has now been published as the latest issue of ARMAX is shipping. You may remember ARMAX as the old journal published by the Winchester museum. The new ARMAX is still published by the Cody Firearms Museum, but it is a more international effort, with editors from ARES, the Royal Armouries, etc. The converted Winchesters have interested me ever since I've seen two of them in the seized stash of the Dillinger Gang when they were arrested in 1934 in Tucson. My early research was encouraged by Sandy Jones (OCM) on this very site, but I've dug much deeper. Commonly called the "Lebman Carbines", I think I have been able to establish in the article that they probably aren't the work of Lebman. I've also found several more examples, and also found that criminals used a number of conversions to 9mm, complete with drum mags and suppressors! ARMAX is currently also running a kickstarter to reissue the old ARMAX journals in a slightly new format (mainly colour photos). Cheers HANS

Hi, no, that 200 number is absolutely incorrect if it is supposed to be the number of German police guns. All serious sources (ie, not the internet) for the police guns give at least 7,500. Again, the Bavarian police alone had 1,025. The Prussian police was much larger, and the other German states also held some. I've seen serials for the M.P.18,I north of 50,000 (you'll remember that 50,000 was the figure that had been originally ordered during the war), although that doesn't necessarily mean that as many were produced. The conversions have absolutely nothing to do with the 1920 mark. All guns marked 1920 were originally drum-fed guns that were held by the German government in 1920. Some of these were later (1930 onwards) converted, others not. The 1920 mark really doesn't say much about anything,. It is, of course, also commonly found on many other German weapons that were then in possession of the German government. After WWI, many of the guns left Germany, but they did keep many in service with the German police and in secret depots for the clandestine shadow army. No, all the licensed (and unlicensed) variants have distinct features that allow you to easily tell them apart. Cheers HANS