reconbob

The rocker slot on the M1A1 bolt is identical to the M1928A1 bolt, so you can use that part of the drawing on NFAToys. Bob

This should work - The Unofficial Tommy Gun Page (archive.org) Bob

I know a lot of us would frequent NFAToys.com when we needed a drawing for reference. A month or two ago the site was taken down. I do not know if the owner took it down, and if so why? Or if the site was taken down by a third party as some type of censorship? I should have thought of this before, but you can still access the site using the WayBack Machine website. I did not roam around NFAToys.com - I just checked the drawings and they are all there. The only difference is that you can only view them vs. download, but an extra click will save a viewed image. So I don’t know about you guys but I am going to grab as many as I can in case for some reason they also get scrubbed from WayBack. Bob

The WW2 ordnance drawings for the Thompson have a note near the title block of the drawing that says "Ref. A.O.C. dwg #" and then the original Auto Ordnance (NOT U.S. Ordnance) drawing number. The U.S. ordnance drawing number is marked outside the bottom left of the title block. The prefix to the drawing number - A, B, C, or D is the size of the drawing. Somewhere along the way, the original U.S. Ordnance drawing number had the prefix "65" added, but otherwise the drawing number is the same. In 1957 all of the drawings were "back filed" and this note is also next to the title block. I assume this means that they realized the guns would no longer be produced and the drawings were archived. So all of this WW2 data was stored at the U.S. Rock Island Arsenal (not the commercial Rock Island Armory) and was available from the government via Freedom of Information Act requests. I requested and received drawings around 1980. The requested drawings were provided as microfilm "windows" imbedded in the old IBM cards. i do not know to what extent this was automated since this was years before personal computers were available. Sometime during the mid-late 1990's all of the engineering data was transferred to Picatinny Arsenal and FOIA requests are directed there. However, for whatever reason, not all of the drawings are there. Whether it's because they were lost in transit, or because they were never available I do not know. But modern technology now means that the drawings are available in PDF format, and emailed to recipients. A good example of a drawing that is missing is the drawing for the M1A1 bolt. M1928A1 bolt, M1 bolt - no problem. But they do no have the drawing for the M1A1 bolt. I don't think there is anything sinister here. These WW2 drawings are 80+ years old now, and the drawings are requested by drawing number and name. And a guy sitting at a computer searching a database has no idea what the drawings are for. There are other Thompson drawings missing from the database as well. It's probably just the inevitable loss over the years. Bob

Yea, I vote for fake. The guy must dip and/or spray the gun with harmless gook, take photos, and then clean off the gook. For me the big error is that the gun is supposed to be badly rusted from long term exposure, yet the wood, while dirty, is not damaged or rotted in any way. Bob

I have always thought that the M1/M1A1 frames were numbered on the bottom so that the serial numbers could be read without taking the guns out locked racks, such as those on ships where the racks hold them buttplate down, bottom out. Do I have this right? I have seen my share of trigger frames and my estimate would be that about 1/3 have a serial number. Bob

I was not able to access Gunbroker or Weaponsguild. ( Perhaps because I am currently out of the country.) But the lesson - if there is one - to be learned from the Sturmgewehr auction, Is don’t make the same mistake and sell your parts for a fraction of what they are worth. A complete WW2 trigger frame as noted is not worth less than $1000. Just because some guy gave his away doesn’t mean that’s the current value. He also has a complete bolt with cocking handle, buffer pilot, buffer and all those parts are worth not less than $375. A grip mount not worth less than $100, a used buttstock assy with buttplate and swivel worth not less than $50, an M1A1 rear sight worth not less than $30, and a 30-rd mag worth not less than $20. So he sold his parts worth at least $1,575 for $1300. This does not include the cut receiver pieces which would go for what? $200? So he sold $1,775 of parts for $1300. If the guy wants to give his parts away, of course he can do what he wants. But somewhere down the road if some guy who knows nothing posts and instantly sells a complete trigger frame for say, $250, doesn’t mean that’s the going/correct price. It means the guy who sold it sold it too cheap and the guy that bought it was lucky. Bob

Yes, that is a used blish lock. I would also say that the wear rises to the level of damage vs. normal wear. In a properly functioning gun you don’t see wear like that. A lot of people sell used parts as new either because they are dishonest or because they don’t know the difference. There was a breech oiler listed as MINT/NOS up on GB for the longest time and the felt was worn and dirty and the bluing was 50% gone and you could see the ring shaped wear marks where the buffer hits. Really at a glance you knew it was not MINT, but there it was. You have to be careful with cosmoline. I bought some NOS mag catches from a reputable seller, they were packed in little zip lock bags and all gunked up so I just put them in the bin. Months later when i degreased them to use them they were all badly pitted. I am sure the seller did not know and was duped by whoever he got them from. Bob

I am constantly checking the price and availability for the parts in the trigger frame because we need them and use them to complete trigger frames for the blank guns. You cannot buy a set of those parts for less than $200. I just added up my most recent list and it was $283. This does not include the frame itself. We also make trigger frames and it takes about 3 1/2 hours to machine one from a solid bar 2 1/2” x 2” x 9 5/8”. This does not include the time it takes to engrave the fire control markings. You also have to add in the cost of the steel, the cost of stress relieving, and the cost to black oxide (blue). CNC machining costs about $90/hr. If you take all of the above into account, you’re looking at not less than $400 to make a trigger frame and if you were to sell it for $500 you’re theoretical profit is only $100 which would put it in the “don’t bother” zone. And if you add $283 for the small parts, if you sold it for $750 your theoretical profit is $67 - even more of a don’t bother. And this example is for a NEW manufacture frame - an original WW2 frame is worth more. About a year ago I helped out a guy who had 10 new manufacture frames and the small parts and he wanted me to assemble and blue them so he could sell them. He sold them all for $995 and could have sold more. Again - not original G.I. So based on all this an original stripped frame is worth at least more than a new mfg. one, and a complete one is worth not less than $995. I mentioned in a different thread about how a lot of guys are living in the past and their frame of reference is 1980’s $195 complete parts sets. Talk to someone today who was born 15-20 years later and has no memories of that and you will be surprised at what they consider values to be. One last note - many Thompson parts will never be made again because the cost to set up to make them will never be returned because at best you would sell dozens adding up to hundreds, not hundreds adding up to thousands. Bob

Many years ago I was requested to put a PD marking on a Win M97 stock. Nothing nefarious - they just wanted the gun to be identified as their property. And DQ is right. When stocks are new fresh wood, the wood is soft and easily marked/impressed by the stamps. But 30+ years later the wood has dried out, seasoned, etc. And when you stamp it the stamp does not make as deep an impression and the wood fibers, now brittle, break and stick up. Once you see it you don’t forget it. And the USMC stamp is not stamped - it looks like it was done with a router. Bob

If this is an original military Thompson you should replace the barrel with an original G.I. barrel. The Green Mountain barrels are AOK, but down the line when you go to sell the gun a GM barrel is not going to help the cause. Bob

The sear with the "excess" material is the good one, because it will be pushed down all the way clear of the bottom of the bolt. The thin one might still stick up into the path of the bolt maybe 1/16" so pulling the trigger will not release the bolt. Of course its the trigger, disconnector, sear lever, and sear working together. As long as pulling the trigger drops the sear all the way and releases the bolt all is well. But if the sear does not drop down far enough to release the bolt when you pull the trigger all the way, some aspect of these parts is wrong. Bob

I agree, it looks parkerized. I wonder why? And when? Oh well… Bob

Here is a photo of two sears. The one on top has the correct thick leg which means that the sear will be depressed farther by the sear lever. Bob

If you are assembling/replacing parts in a trigger frame, consider yourself lucky if it works. I just finished assembling/testing a batch of trigger frames for the blank guns and it was a long, long way from assemble and shoot. We are getting to the end of the line with many parts (Sarco no longer lists Thompson parts.) And maybe the parts out there over many years have been rejected, sold, rejected again, resold, etc. and an increasing number of them are no good. Here are some of the parts and their defects - Sear - leg that engages sear lever is too thin = sear will not drop far enough to release bolt Sear lever - leg that engages sear is not thick enough = sear will not drop far enough to release bolt Disconnector - leg that engages sear lever is too short = sear will not drop far enough to release bolt Disconnector - leg that engages sear lever is too long = disconnector will not rebound under sear lever Disconnector - arced surface that engages sear lever is too flat = disconnector will not rebound under sear lever Trigger - hole for disconnector is too high/low = sear does not function properly Rocker - height is too short/low = not tripped by bolt on semi Rocker - height is too long/high = trigger frame will not slide onto receiver when set to full auto Sear spring - can have "kink" in the coils = sear does not drop all the way and/or "two stage" pull The defects in the legs of the sear and sear lever are easy to spot if you have seen enough of them but the other parts you can't tell until you try them. Bob