kanister

How do you explain this theory when the guns were marked 38/42 and 38/43 from the factory? If Beretta marked them “38/42” and “38/43”, it would seem they were using these designations officially. This is not a theory but what says Mr. Balzi on his book "I mitra italiani 1\915- 1991" that wrote in collaboration with the former director of the Gardone proof house and many Beretta's engineers.

No, not only one but many. But they are all in Italian.

There is some confusion in the designation of these guns: the 38/42, 38/43,... are only experts designations. The Beretta's name was "Model 1" for all the short barreled versions till the "Model 2, 3, 4 " for the post war model with colapsable stock. The Italian army's name was "Model 2" for the so called Mod. 38/42 and Mod. 38/43, then "Model 3" for the Mod. 38/44, "Model 4 and 5" for the Mod 38/49 with the new safe buttons.

They are the same models that were gradualy semplified.

Sorry, but I can't find a reply for the GA mark: but are you sure that it is GA? I turned it upside down and it seem other. I have many books and magazine articles both Italian and English, but I trust only on the recent ones. For istance I tell you the "tale" of another Italian smg: the TZ45. Many year ago (around 1960) an American writer wrote that it was designed by two brothers: Toni and Zorzoli Giandoso and from that day everyone who write about smg goes on writing the same "tale" without control. Only on recent years another American writer, Ralph Riccio, on his book "Italian Small Arms" at last reestablishes the thuth: Tonon, Zorzoli and Giandoso were three different individuals with no relationship. Every time I start reading that they insted were brothers I stop reading. And the ones that write about the TZ45 are the same that tell us that the 4UT is a German Marking and many other pleasantry like this one.

For your original question I can't aid you: I live in another world.... For the GA stamp have you a picture? For additional reserarch I can only recommend to read some Italian authors: I have a collection of articles from many Italian magazines and also many books and I try to search on them when I have a question. The same for the 4UT that, I repeat myself, is not a German stamp.

Yes, they bought the 38A before the Italian Army.

Two pics of Beretta receivers I took from the net: - first one from this forum - and the second one of a Rumanian contract with five numbers on s/n. You can see that the letters are separate from the numbers and have different shape.

"Camicia Nera" is like your "private". Do your army order a batch of gun only for private and require to mark them separately? I think no.

NO, the experimental 38 had the eject port ad 12 o'clock, while the 38A ad it at 11 o'clock First 38A had the big open compensator and bayonet lug you say and they were only for the PAI (Polizia Africa Italiana) but were forgotten at the 1939 end.

Yes, the short barrel production started on 1941 but the receiver was the same and the serial numbers were mixed. There was no Mod. 38, the first production was the MAB 38A. Mod 38 was only a prototipe that never left the factory and is still on the Beretta museum.

Production began on 1938, but with few numbers: PAI, Police, and Rumanian contract. Italian army started to buy the MAB only on 1940, always with little numbers. Mass production started only after the Repubblican Army was born. (I forgot: Serial R is the only with five number, it was sold to Romania)

A little memorandum for those that write that CN means "Camicie Nere": the camicie nere were the members of the "Milizia Volontaria Sicurezza Nazionale", so the writing would be "MVSN" and not CN,

I don't know now the nunber of MAB produced during nthe war, but I can try to find it. I can only remember that on last months of war Beretta produced each month 30.000' guns. Yes, the short barrel MAB 38/41, 38/42, 38/43,...were produced to be sold to Germany, ( and so the MP, Maschinen Pistole) also before the surrender, but they were not sold only to Germans: when they were at hand they were sold to every authorized Italian organization. Beretta nomenclature knows only the MAB 38/42: the partition is a experts invention

Beretta started using for serial number a letter and four digit (A0001 to A9999) till Z999. Then restarted with AA and four digit, then AB, AC, ... CD,..CN,... I have an Egyptian 38A/44 of the year 1957 with the serial LP 0286. Who says other things don't say about he is speaking.

I looked at your pics: if the CN mark you refer is this it's only part of the serial: you must read CN 3551.

Official tale tells us that Mussolini was executed with a MAS 38 that today is kept in a museum in Tirana (Albania). This was used because the killer had a new Thompson that had not been cleared of the grease and so did not shoot. Only property mark on MAB were the ones of the PAI (Polizia Africa Italiana) and of the "Pubblica Sicurezza" (Police), so your CN can't be referred to Camicie Nere, that had no property mark. CN and CD are perhaps production inspector's marks: can you show some picture of these marks?

I am sorry for Ian of Forgottenweapons because he spoke very well about a book of mine but I can't agree with him about his statement about the 4UT mark. All guns produced in Italy between September 1943 and April 1945 were inspected by Italian inspectors (like 4UT but also Brescia proof mark and others), then the Germans established to whom these guns had to be delivered, both German or Italian army. Only Beretta guns inspected by Germans had the mark WaA162: German established also the quality and quantity of guns to be produced allotting to each factory the necessary quantity of raw materials. I like very much the Beretta Mod 34 and 35, but this is not the right place to speak about them: this is my mod.34 WaA162 the day I bought it.

Take a look at il91.it scrool the left window till "Marchi" and then "Legni".

The only reason they bring more money is only the ignorance of the collectors that think that the 4UT is a German mark. If you look at the Beretta Mod. 1934 pistols also the commercial Geco bring more money, but they are common commercial guns.

Mistake is here: 4UT was not a German stamp but an Italian one. The 4 Ufficio Tecnico (or 4th Tecnical Office) was an Italian office established before the September '43 surrender and was the heir of the old IVU. After Germans seized every Italian facility the 4UT office inspected the guns addressed both to Germans and Italians.

I have found a similar mark on an Italian M1891 stock: it has only little differences. Another similar mark was applied by inspectors of the Royal Navy. Remember that after September '43 Germans seized every gun they can and many went to Normandy and other war theaters.

Have you tried Italian marks? If this gun was produced on 1942 perhaps it's not German.