maxfaxdude

Call me crazy...but I love all of it. And all machineguns...the good, the bad and the ugly. The history, learning about them, the "investment" part of it and shooting them. I just wish they weren't so darn expensive and that we could open the registry again. Maybe someday, but I'm not counting on it. I am glad for what I have and that our country allows civilian machinegun ownership.

This has been known for ages...another technological PITA. Just print and sign in triplicate the first form (the one with "ATF Copy" in red at the bottom). Put the payment info on only one of the 2 forms to be sent back to the ATF. The 3rd copy goes to the CLEO - you don't put any payment info on that form and can leave out your SSN (but they can find that out very easily) so I put it down anyway - also helps distinguish you from other people who may have the same name and a criminal record - just ask me how I know! The ATF and CLEO don't seem care - as long as all the necessary info is there. As Johnson said, I prefer computer, actually faster for me, easier to read and less mistakes or room for error. Handwritten forms work too. Sometimes I use an old fashioned typewriter just for fun! If you have Adobe paid software...you can import the PDF and manipulate it as you wish.

https://usarmamentcorp.com/

Dick definitely had some rare stuff! These guys jumped in at the right time before interest in machineguns skyrocketed or the awareness that a civilian could own one became well-known. PJ Heck told me he once traded a '69 GTO bumper for a machinegun (I forget which one). When I said that he (PJ) got a better deal...he just smiled. In the 1980s, I used to get the Shotgun News and asked my father if we could buy a HK MP5 with Fleming sear (I wasn't 21 yet) for $1,595. He said just buy a semi-auto HK94 and be done with it. Yeah BIG mistake there Dad! From what info was avaiIable online, I got the impression that there were 2 auctions of at least 100 machineguns each?!?!

I'm not saying that the ATF's NFRTR is a complete mess. For the most part, it is functional and intact. But there is surely some room for improvement!

Both of my "Form 2 registration" machineguns are fully transferable. One is a MG13, the other a Valmet M78.

Richard, Thank you for posting the photos! He had an incredible collection!

This discussion highlights one of the big problems with machinegun acquisition and deposition in the United States. We are relying on the ATF's incomplete and sometimes (if not often) unreliable National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. In 2018, I purchased a fully-transferable supposedly C&R eligible Canadian Bren LMG from a private individual via a well-known dealer in Arizona. The dealer is reputable and I had done several transfers with him in the past. Form 4 paperwork was filed with the ATF to transfer the gun directly to me (outside AZ) but eventually denied because according to the ATF, the gun was fully transferable but not C&R eligible. This happened despite the fact that the gun had transferred to the seller as a C&R in 1992 -- and I have the paperwork to prove it. Additionally, the approved ATF form 4 under maker, manufacturer and/or imported is listed as "Inglis UK 1942". Inglis was a Canadian company which never manufactured anything in the UK. An ATF form 4 was re-filed, approved in less than 24 hours -- actually in a matter of minutes (that's a story for another day) and eventually the transfer through my SOT and then to me. How many of us have approved Form 3 or 4s where the maker, manufacturer and/or importer says "Form 2 registration" -- that's complete nonsense. So it's a less than perfect system. What the point of this discussion? Odds are that this Thompson is not fully transferable. But, I argue, due the lack of good record keeping on the ATF's part, that any machinegun bought legally in the U.S. may not be transferable to civilians and (like what is often said in the equities market) past performance is NO GUARANTEE of future results. In other words, it is ALWAYS buyer beware.

Definitely interested...if you're in the neighborhood. Seller could supply a redacted Form 4 which might tell more. If imported before the 1968 GCA, maybe fully transferable. Or maybe registered some other way as a fully transferable. Stranger things have happened....especially with the ATF.

Over the past few years, I've acquired several of Dick Wray's machineguns which got me interested in the man and his collection that was auctioned off by Cowan's in 2013. Does anyone have a good online link to those Cowan's auctions - I believe there were 2 of them.

Did you acquire this from the Robert Segel collection?

Posted on Sturm here in case you missed it: https://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34662-great-wsj-article-on-larry-vickersatf-etc/ The Wall Street Journal article: https://www.wsj.com/us-news/the-gun-influencer-who-used-small-town-cops-to-import-machine-guns-bf91641c DOJs website: https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/north-carolina-and-north-dakota-police-chiefs-and-federal-firearms-licensees-indicted

I'm a purist, so I would stay away from the 380 ACP version...not to mention that all parts replacements would have to be custom. The MAS 38 on GB also looks refinished (possibly parkerized). I thought I recently saw one on line for sale in really good condition -- I don't remember exactly where -- for $15 or 16 K? I really love rare/quirky/weird subguns which certainly describes the MAS 38. But it's not something I'm going take out to the range more than once a year and spare parts are hard to find. I'd put it in the $12 to 15K range...max.

Side by side comparison of the 7.65 French versus 380 Auto. Dimensionally, the cartridges are not similar but are in the same range, ballistically.

As seemingly with all French weapons, it's weird -- but pleasant to shoot with very mild recoil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OXDT5g8-nU

Originally, he wanted $8K but seller had never fired it (and wasn't sure if it ran) so I negotiated it down to $7,000. It's chambered in the original 7.65 mm French Long. Very rare indeed, but I managed to snag some ammo from Steinel. The gun wouldn't fire a single round. On the advice of Ian McCullom, I sent it to Gary Szechy (Gary's Bunker) and he got the thing working perfectly in short order.

I bought a C&R MAS 38 from a private individual off of Sturmgewehr in October 2020.

Actually, the tag said $32 K. I took a pic (see it below). Too much for a tube gun IMO. But Owens do not come up very often in any form.

I saw one for sale recently at $32 K which seems high.

Thank you... I've had good luck with MWT as well. I did buy a Texas Mac 10 from them several years ago but it just didn't look right. They took it back, no questions, asked for a full refund.

I bought this (pics below) numbers matching C&R PPS43 from Midwest Tactical in March 2022 for $32K. Sticker on the mag says "Lomont" and the gun may well have been his, IDK; I've purchased a number of Kent's guns over the years. "Rare", "very few", etc. -- these terms seem to get tossed around a lot in the machinegun world lately. 43s aren't common but they certainly can't be that rare either. I know a number of people who have one (and I don't know all that many people). Anyway, they shoot well and are simple to maintain/repair/fix if anything goes wrong. I would think $30 to 35 K is FMV. They don't seem to come up for public sale very often, but they are definitely out there.

Congrats and that is a super cool wedding! Thanks for sharing!

Val is the man.

After Robert passed, I flew to Milwaukee to look at another gun for sale in his collection. He had a lot of nice high grade machineguns. Many had already been sold before I got there. Much of the stuff was in pristine condition but for me the prices were too high so I passed. I've got enough "unfired museum pieces" already. He also had a lot of miniature replica firearms, some which were fully functional.

I don't think it's necessary. The stock abuts the receiver in that area but 22 LR is such low recoil...it should not matter. Val Cooper at E & L manufacturing probably sells that part -- if you wanted one.