TD.

Autorotate, Great question. As you can tell, I have really enjoyed this thread. I cannot give a complete answer to your question without going back and reading Great Britian - The Tommy Gun Story. I will say that the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) made an 11th and last order for 150,000 Thompson guns on September 26, 1941. There is no doubt the submachine gun became an important part of the military doctrine of all Allied Forces. Everybody wanted Tommy Guns during WWII. It took a long time for the production of submachine guns in Great Britain to meet the demand. Perhaps those that have purchased GB-TTGS will chime in with excerpts from the book that completely answer your question. For those that don't have a copy, it is a very inexpensive book ($29.99 at Amazon) or directly from me for $25 plus $5 shipping. Think Christmas present! I guarantee a good read. Not one word has ever been challenged.

Do not allow my opinions to put a damper on your research. There may be more information that could buttress your thoughts. Or lead you down a different path. No one person has the answers to everything. I find your posts very serious and informative. There are Thompson purists that despise J. Russell Maguire. William Helmer painted a very poor picture of him in TGTMTTR. Regardless of his personality or personal life, he was way ahead of everyone when it came to the Thompson submachine gun. He also risked a large amount of his own money to gain control of Auto-Ordnance Corporation. The first contract with Savage Arms for 10,000 guns could have resulted in thousands of unsold Thompson guns, again in storage. Of course, that did not happen. Under Maguire's leadership, the stockholders, including the Thompson and Blish families, received enormous dividend payments during World War II. James West (Mk VII) may join in on this thread. He is very knowledgeable on all things British. Forum member StrangeRanger had a beautiful Lanchester display at the 2024 Thompson Collector's Association Show & Shoot. I remember him telling me about how he obtained a copy of a very rare Lanchester manual from Great Britian. If I had a question about Lanchester submachine guns, I would certainly turn to him or James West. There is also a Sten, Sterling, and Lanchester SMG Message Board on MachineGunBoards.com. Please continue to post. And let us know when your book is published. All my books are printed via Kindle Direct Publishing at KDP.com, an Amazon.com company. I find print on demand publishing an excellent platform for niche books about submachine guns. Hardcover is now an available option. Feel free to contact me directly at: tkd5501@fuse.net with questions, or if you just want to talk Thompson.

Thank you for the kind words about, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story (GB-TTGS). I can tell that you have done some in-depth research by the two documents you posted. It has been a long time since I looked at the documentation James West found at the National Archives and provided to me. A book was never intended. The initial information sought was to document the production of the Model of 1928A or no compensator Thompson submachine gun by Savage Arms for Great Britain. This information resulted in a story in Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine in 2013. But James found so much more information! I believe I understand your theory of Great Britain helping America "develop" with "invested capital" the production of the Thompson submachine gun at Savage Arms in 1940. I don't think those words have the meaning you believe they do. You have to remember the 1920s Thompson submachine gun was obsolete in 1940 when it was placed back into production at Savage Arms. That said, the Thompson gun was a proven design that worked. Actually, it worked very well at its intended purpose. Most importantly, it was available - thanks to the foresight of J. Russell Maguire. After the German army showed the world the value of a submachine gun in 1939, the old military thinking about the submachine gun that wasted large amounts of low velocity pistol ammunition changed - and quickly. And Maguire had the only game in town with his Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Great Britain had placed orders and spent money for the entire factory production run of Thompson submachine guns until the end of 1940. Great Britain was not actually receiving the entire production run but that is a different story. Suffice to say, Great Britain was receiving the bulk of the production. The authorities in Great Britain really wanted locally produced submachine guns; the "Schmeizer" Lanchesters and STENS. However, delivery was of these weapons were many months away and Great Britian could not wait. They needed guns immediately. I believe what the authorities were worried about in August/September 1940 was without future orders (and expenditure of more capital), Savage Arms may move on to the manufacture of other weapons upon completion of the Thompson orders. Of course, that did not happen, and the issue became moot with the passage of the Lend Lease Act in March 1941. I did not find the two documents you posted in my documentation provided by James. However, I don't believe these documents changed anything I wrote on page 15 (The Air Ministry) and page 16 (No Additional Orders?). I encourage you to keep going with your research. Again, I do believe Great Britain did invest capitol to expand ammunition production in the America - Pages 66-69 (Ammunition - fuel for the Gangster Guns). I welcome your research and opinions. If the results change what I have written in GB-TTGS, so be it. I am very open minded and try to write stories that can be expanded on or added to in the future by other researchers. All good stuff!!!

Congratulations on your research for a book on the Lanchester submachine gun. I know very little about the Lanchester but always liked their appearance. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation was a financial flop. In the summer of 1939, there was still approximately 4600 guns in inventory at Colt's; near one-third of the total production of 15,000 Thompson guns. During the past 19 years, there was never a really large order from any one customer. Long story short, J. Russell Maguire gained control of Auto-Ordnance in July 1939 - see The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, (TGTMTTR) 1969, by Willam Helmer for a history of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, later Maguire Industries. Russell Maguire had the foresight to see a war brewing in Europe and contracted with Savage Arms in December 1939 to put the Thompson submachine gun back into production. There were still Colt guns in inventory when the contract for 10,000 new Thompson guns with Savage Arms was signed. The British first order of Thompson guns in February 1940 was for only 750 guns. Savage Arms was a long-time arms manufacturer in the USA and did not need financial assistance for the first order. The British second order was for only an additional 2,000 guns on May 14, 1940. Three days later the British became on-board with the Thompson gun and placed an order for and additional 26,250 Thompson guns. Many more orders followed in the subsequent months and years. The British were initially buying the guns under a program called cash & carry. This all ended with the passage of Lend-Lease in March 1941. Within a short period of time, the US Government took control over production and distribution of the Thompson guns manufactured at Savage Arms. Auto-Ordnance Corporation opened their own factory in August 1941 to boost the production of Thompson guns. It has been nearly 10 years since I wrote Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story (GB-TTGS) with the invaluable assistance of forum member James West. I don't recall any financial assistance from Great Britain being offered for the production of the guns. However, I do remember some capital assistance was sought and received for the expansion of the ammunition factories, Federal Arms and Peters come to mind. I believe the British Purchasing Commision (BPC) was involved with all of this. I don't remember anything noteworthy about the Lanchester but remember the British really wanted to move to the STEN submachine gun. But British production was not keeping up with demand, thus more Thompson guns were needed. One area the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) often harped about to their superiors was the need to place future orders of Thompson guns to maintain factory production. Of course, this involved the commitment of funds. The MoS was worried if future orders stopped, the factories may move on to manufacture other arms and never returned to the production of the much needed Thompson guns. Review of the all the memorandums, telegrams, letters, etc., from the British National Archives provided a pretty good picture of what was happening. GB-TTGS has 358 footnotes. Most everything is documented. We may be looking at the same documentation. Provide me some dates or identifying descriptions of the documents you are using to form your hypothesis, and I will see if I have the documents in my research files. If you are going to link the World War II production of the Thompson submachine gun to the Lanchester, I believe you really need to understand the British procurement. GB-TTGS and TGTMTTR will provide an excellent basis of what was happening during this time period for you to build on.

quartermaster-1939-69. You have asked a very broad question. I am going to assume you mean the United Stated Military. A beginning time or date would certainly help. The January 1940 ending date is perfect. I am going to give it a shot. According to the lifelong research conducted by Gordon Herigstad and contained in his 6th (and last) Edition of, Colt Thompson Submachine Guns, Serial Numbers and Histories, the following Colt Thompson guns were ordered or obtained by the: United States Marine Corps: 732 Thompson submachine guns - Page 818 United States Coast Guard - 118 Thompson submachine guns - Page 780 United States Navy - 118 Thompson submachine guns - Page 721 Springfield Armory - 86 Thompson submachine guns - Pages 355/356 All the above guns are of Colt manufacture. Gordon can document each of the Colt Thompson guns listed above by serial number but does state there could have been a few more smaller orders or acquisitions. For example, the United States Marine Corps would have put captured Thompson guns from the Nicaragua campaign to use and also built compete Thompson guns from spare part receivers. As documented by Frank Iannamico in his American Thunder II, Page 169, the first large order by the United States Army occurred on June 30, 1939. The order was for 951 Thompson submachine guns and parts. These guns are of Colt manufacture and are uniformly marked with the letters U.S. and A1 after the Model of 1928 (8 overstamp the number 1) nomenclature on the left side receiver. There were no more orders United States military orders prior to February 1, 1940. Of Note, Frank also documented a requisition order of 8 Thompson submachine guns by the United States Marine Corp on January 16, 1940 - Page 168. It is unknown if these 8 Colt manufactured Thompson guns are included in Gordon's numbers, above. The United States Army also acquired a small number of Colt guns for testing in the 1930s. It is assumed these are the Springfield Armory Thompson guns listed above. What I have missed? If your main interest is in Bristish acquisitions of the Thompson submachine gun, I recommend, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. The first documented British military acquisition was 6 Colt manufactured Thompson submachine guns sometime in late December 1939 or January 1940 for the British Expeditionary Force - Pages 8 & 9.

Ricky, Here is a link to a previous discussion on the Terrell hardcases. Shown below is the Terrell advertisement posted in the above link by long time forum member Bill Menosky (aut-ord-co). I have never seen a Terrell hardcase with a piano hinge in back and no front locking latch. It appears Mr. Terrell made these hardcases in many different variations. I still use mine today. All good stuff!!!

Ricky, I believe this is a James G. Terrell hardcase. If so, it is an older reproduction but a very sturdy and durable hardcase. Does the center latch have a small circle on top with a jet with contrails inside? Does the inside of the lid have two clips on the far right side? If so, you have a great hardcase for a 1928AC Thompson submachine gun. I have never seen a James G. Terrell hardcase with that type of fabric lining in the interior. Very interesting.

MrBill, Blanksguy and Lewisfan are right on point. 25K to 35K (Savage Commercial in nice condition) is the correct price range without seeing pictures. Original finish in good condition and matching receiver and frame will bring the highest price. An early Savage with a New York address in nice condition is a big plus. Once you hit 30K plus with a World War II Thompson submachine gun, you have to have something special. My opinion. Others may have other ideas. Post some pictures.

I would not want to spend anywhere close to $500 for an Auto-Ordnance West Hurley C drum. The great majority of these drums do not work, and the workmanship is not very good. On many, the rails are not correct and will remove the finish from a Thompson around the drum slots. The C drums manufactured in Tawain and sold by the Gun Parts Corporation (formerly Numrich Arms) do work and are usually priced between $400 and $500. They also come with an inspection period and can be returned if not satisfied. You still need to do the pre-shooting checks like making sure there are no tight spots in the rails (very easy to correct) by running a cartridge through the rails and add a bit of lubricant inside the drum body (l like graphite). I have included the link, below. Drum Magazine, .45 ACP, 100 Round, Blued (Aftermarket) (gunpartscorp.com)

Lawman9328, It is a first for me! Thank you for sharing. When the Model 1928 West Hurley Thompson was placed in production in 1975, there appeared to be an ample supply of Thompson parts in the marketplace. As Auto-Ordnance at West Hurley (AOC WH) manufactured more and more guns, supplies quickly dwindled and AOC WH had to started manufacturing many of the Thompson internal parts. This manufacturing included several different variations of actuators. Perhaps the actuators featured by motorgun and Lawman9328 were not built as fakes but constructed by or for Thompson owners with available parts and pieces in an attempt to make a working actuator. Most members on this forum remember when the "Russian" parts kits became available; we were awash with Thompson parts for many years. That was not the case between 1975 and 1986. The shortage of Thompson parts was so profound by 1985 that AOC WH had to manufacture M1A1 bolts (and like the actuators, all junk). It is just a thought. All opinions are welcome.

PM sent. I cover GunMachines in my book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More. I am always looking for additional information. Thanks for posting.

motorcar, Thank you for the kind words about my Amateur's Guide book. It is one of my best sellers. The last original Colt Navy two-piece actuator I saw for sale was in the $3000 price range. I would guess the price is not any lower today. Finding one for sale of any variation is the problem. During my research I have encountered many Colt Navy Thompson submachine guns with WWII USGI actuators. Most of the owners were told and believed they had purchased a Colt in all original condition. The Amateur's Guide book and now A Colt Thompson Buyer and Collectors Guide have made much more informed buyers. I have made note of your unusual actuator. Perhaps another one will turn up one day. As of now, I consider it an excellent display piece. Thank you for sharing. The Thompson forum is one of the best places on the Internet. Speaking of display pieces, I wonder if PK. can fix this....🙂

Bob, After reading your post I was certain I had seen some Philadelphia Police Department Colts in civilian hands. A review of Gordon Herigstad's 6th Edition found the additional serial numbers for Philadelphia PD: NO 4339 - transferable - I have pictures NO 4946 - transferable - a Roger Cox (LEO) gun - I have pictures NO 5802 - unknown status - no civilian history - Philadelphia County Prison, Holmesburg, PA NO 6924 - unknown status - no civilian history NO 7068 - unknown status - no civilian history - Philadelphia County Prison, Holmesburg, PA NO 7315 - transferable - Philadelphia County Prison, Holmesburg, PA NO 8450 - transferable - a Roger Cox (LEO) gun - I have pictures - Philadelphia County Prison, Holmesburg, PA Gordon also attributed NO 10538 to the Philadelphia PD and the Philadelphia County Prison in Holmesburg, PA. I have no information of how the prison Colt's ended up at the police department or vice-versa. Or if it happened at all. Perhaps, this is something you could ask your former PD officer. I would guess he is familiar with the Holmesburg prison. It appears to me that Roger Cox was able to obtain a few registered Colt's from Philadelphia. I always find it interesting when some Colts at a police department or prison are registered and some not. Any chance poor record keeping by the IRS could be the answer? I also do not know where Gordon obtained all of his information. Thanks Bob. All good stuff!!!

This may be what NO 5382 looked like before PK. performed his magic.

Additional information: I see an indication on the pictures I have NO 5382 may also be a former USMC Colt Thompson.