TD.

Robert, Thank you for purchasing a copy of my book. I appreciate the kind words. I will be glad to help you decipher any questions you may have with the FOIA results. I understand being busy. Hat's off to your work for GOD. That certainly comes first! I will be glad to assist with some research when you find out where the pouch came from. We need a starting point. Good luck with the seller. When requesting a letter, I have found that sometimes if you offer to write the letter, the other party is much more inclined to agree if all they have to do is sign.

mbc230. Thank you for the hinge pictures of kit #91. It has the Gordon mark and fits perfectly with my research. Outsider, Thank you for the picture. I was told by the manufacturer Gordon purchased 500 kits. If they are being sold in somewhat number order, the inventory is getting low. I am still looking for Gordon's kits between number 39 and 80. Gordon started marking his kits somewhere between these two numbers. See page 162 in, A Thompson Compendium, for more information. All good stuff!!!

The Moor, I find it an interesting piece of canvas. I recommend identifying the actual police department and the serial number of the "M1921A" Thompson submachine gun. I would seek a letter from the seller with this information. All documentation with any unusual piece like this is very important. I want to know when that Model of 1921A was shipped by Auto-0rdnance. Could there be a newspaper picture of policeman wearing this magazine pouch showing off the then "new" Thompson submachine gun? It is certainly worth the search, but you need to provide the starting point with information from the seller. Before the Mills Belt Company went out of business in 1930, they very well could have designed this pouch and provided the drawings to the Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Given the Mills company propensity for marking canvas items, it is hard to believe they would have let an actual canvas piece like this leave the factory with no markings. If a sample piece by Mills was provided to Auto-Ordnance, it would not be surprising Auto-Ordnance later sold it. When the inventory of Mills manufactured items was depleted, Auto-Ordnance turned to the Russell Manufacturing Company (RUSCO) to manufacture canvas items. The first evidence is in the 51 Pine Street Auto-Ordnance catalog with the introduction of the 5-cell magazine (marked) pouch with individual flaps. While Mills items are also pictured in this catalog, all references to the Mills company were removed. Let's not forget that Mills did manufacture a magazine pouch with individual flaps. Is there any similarity to this unmarked 5-cell pouch to the 2-cell Mills shot shell pouch? Those with my book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More, may recognize this Mills shot shell pouch in the cover photograph. The Moor, you have something that may be very special. Let's do some research and see what turns up.

The Moor, I really like that 5 cell Type XX magazine pouch. Thank you for sharing. The "CARR FAST. CO. BOSTON MASS" fasteners are a great indication this is an early RUSCO product. Does this pouch have any history or provenance? While I really don't study the canvas products, I do not remember ever seeing a pouch like this. Are there any more like it in the collection of other forum members? Yes, RUSCO used the CARR fasteners. I believe the fasteners with the BOSTON MASS markings are the earliest ones - but more data is needed to state that with any authority. I believe the snap found on your unmarked canvas carrying case is marked: UNITED CARR If your magazine pouch is an example of an early (unmarked) RUSCO 5 cell magazine pouch, it begs the question why the very scarce 4 cell RUSCO marked magazine pouches where not made with the same CARR marked fasteners. One would think both types would be made in the same time frame. All good stuff!!!

Outsider, Kit number 422 is the latest I have seen. Thank you for posting. A picture of the insert please. mbc230, Kit number 5 is definitely an early one. Thanks for sharing. The earliest one in my files is Kit number 2 that at one time belonged to Merle Bitikofer, AKA, The Drum Doctor. I am still looking for Gordon's kits between number 39 and 80. Gordon started marking his kits somewhere between these two numbers. See page 162 in, A Thompson Compendium, for more information. All good stuff!!!

M40scoutsniper, Thank you for posting. There are so many World War II reproduction style magazine pouches in the marketplace that everything now looks fake to me! I have never seen a 5-cell Thompson pouch marked "RUSCO" on the inside of a flap with a date mark. Perhaps this style is referenced in the new Thompson Encyclopedia series in a volume I do not have. I look forward to comments from other forum members who collect canvas gear.

Patrick Vdv, Since your early Savage semi-automatic converted Thompson submachine gun is located in Belgium with proper license, I would look to auction sites or dealers in Belgium if you are going to sell. Perhaps, you could sell it in other European countries but that will take some research on your part to see where it is legal to own. I have heard converted submachine guns like yours are legal in Germany. I can say without a doubt that you will never be able to import and sell it in the USA as a transferable machine gun.

Richard, Simply the best World War II manual in English. It contains everything an owner needs to know about properly maintaining their Thompson gun, step by step. Originals are pretty scarce. Note how the cover often separates from the bottom staple. My reproduction Ft. Knox manuals are priced at $15 at Amazon. I sell them for $12 at the Thompson shows. However, if you buy or order a book, I will throw in a copy for 10 bucks and not charge extra for shipping. All good stuff!!!

Matt, PK. can be reached by email at: p-k@q.com He may take a day or two to reply as he is always very busy. Board member Phil Askew probably has "S" marked USGI buffer pilots in stock. Phil can be reached at: philfordparts@yahoo.com If ordering a buffer pilot, I would also get a NOS USGI recoil spring. Good luck with your search for that perfect 1921 Colt. Be sure and really understand this product before buying. The wrong actuator or butt stock can be major deductions. A ringed barrel and/or re-blue are also major deductions. The Hill family All Thompson Show & Shoot for members of The American Thompson Association (TATA) is on Friday, August 1st (show) and Saturday, August (shoot, dinner & show). The location is a suburb of Columbus, Ohio. A quick plane trip on Thursday and you will be good to go on Friday when the doors open. Tracie Hill's collection is worth the trip. You will see and learn a lot about Colt Thompsons. Reach out to me at: tkd5501@fuse.net and I will send you an application for TATA and the S&S. I guarantee a great time.

Patrick Vdv, Thank you for the additional picture. I have little doubt your Savage Thompson was used by British forces during World War II. The military in Great Britain was asking for more and more Thompson guns when your Thompson was shipped to Great Britain in 1940. Each one was very valuable. No doubt it was put to immediate use. I would guess the original finish showed a lot of wear when the decision was made to re-blue it. I know the fore grip is not original. I would guess the same for the (pistol) grip and butt stock. That said, you have a very nice example of an early Savage Thompson with a New York address. If I lived in Belgium, I would try to buy it from you. TSMG28 is the authority on everything drums and magazines for the Thompson gun. If me, I would not use the West Hurley L drum and find a WWII L drum. You can always sell the WH L drum to offset some of your costs. Generally speaking, the WWII L drums fit and run nicely. One with the "U" marking (United Air Cleaner) on the faceplate would be perfect for your early Savage Thompson. Many other Savage Thompsons do have more markings on the left side receiver. The Thompson submachine guns purchased by the U.S. Army will have "U.S." and "A1" nomenclature markings added as well as ordnance inspectors' initials (for example: R.L.B.) and an ordnance mark (wheel or flaming bomb). Some guns purchased by the British under Cash & Carry will have the W or Woolwich mark inside a Crown stamped on the left side receiver, usually near the GEG stamp. Guns from other Allied forces may have different markings. Welcome to the wonderful world of Thompson submachine guns!

Patrick Vdv, I am not seeing the picture of the "P" or proof mark stamped on the top of the barrel. I want to see if the stem of the letter P touches both the barrel collar and the end of the receiver.

Matt, Congratulations on your new 1928 West Hurley Thompson submachine gun. It really doesn't matter what you paid as long as you are happy with the purchase and did not buy to immediately resell. Off hand, I believe you may have paid a touch more than I would have paid but I am not looking at or holding your West Hurley. Value is in the eyes of the beholder. I often times tell prospective buyers the ease of the deal is worth something during Class 3 transactions. Being able to sleep at night after sending off that 5 figure check and knowing you will be approved for ownership and actually receive a gun in the future is worth something. The Class 3 world is full of scams. You need to do at least one thing before firing. Make sure the buffer pilot is a WWII buffer pilot marked with a letter "S" on round part. Do not fire if it contains an unmarked West Hurley two-piece buffer pilot. To that end, I aways recommend one of Board member PKs polyurethane buffer pilots to protect the rear of the receiver. PK can be reached on this forum. I believe the cost is under 10 bucks shipped. If you want to know more about your 1928 West Hurley, my updated West Hurley parts story is in my fourth book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley & More. Signed copies available from me or unsigned copies at Amazon.com. If you live close to Ohio, think about attending a Thompson Show & Shoot this year.

Patrick Vdv, Thank you for sharing pictures of S-30578. Many of the above knowledgeable forum members have provided you a lot of valuable information. These are my thoughts: 1. I really like this Thompson, especially the semi-automatic conversion with the rod or steel peg installed in the frame to prevent turning the rocker pivot to fully automatic fire. I have never seen a Thompson submachine gun modified like this before. 2. S-30578 is a very early Savage Thompson with the second variation receiver. Note the New York address and patent numbers on the right-side receiver. The first Savage variation had patent DATES instead of patent numbers. The end of the Patent Dates and beginning of the Patent Numbers occurred somewhere between the 25,000 and 26,000 serial number range. No one knows exactly were Savage Arms started numbering the Savage guns when production began, but it is believed to be in the early 15,000 serial number range. S-15259 is the earliest Savage production gun known to exist. Based on Savage Arms production numbers, I would guess S-30578 was manufactured in September 1940. It is certainly one of the early Cash & Carry guns shipped to Great Britain. 3. A review of the pictures leads me to believe S-3578 has been refinished. The matching color all over is just too uniform. 4. I suspect the vertical fore grip is a modern-day reproduction. Let us know if you find an "S" letter mark inside the grip channel. The (pistol) grip has been heavily sanded. Note how it fits with the frame. If mine, I would replace this grip. Brass re-enforcement screws in the butt stock are common with British guns. So is a top mounted sling swivel. I cannot tell from your pictures if British Armorers filled the original sling swivel slot at the bottom of the butt stock. Again, very common. 5. Unfortunately, sometime in the past the no-hole magazine catch and knurled fire control levers have been changed out with later variations. However, the milled ejector and knurled actuator are present. Perhaps Canuck will post a picture of his 33,000 Savage (a beautiful gun) that has the proper magazine catch and levers. 6. The barrel is probably original and has the proper "S" mark for Savage Arms on the barrel collar. I count 29 fins and grip mount resting under the 21st fin. Perfect. The grip mount is marked with the square S for Stevens Arms, a brother company to Savage Arms and subcontractor for Thompson submachine gun parts. Note blue color inside the pitting on the grip mount, a sure sign of re-bluing. 7. I believe it has the correct a Type 2 compensator but really need more pictures. I would be interest in seeing if the ends of the compensator pin are flattened. 8. The frame serial number is matched to the receiver serial number. This is a big plus. We see a lot of mis-matched guns and forced numbered matched frames to receivers. 9. The British Broad Arrow mark, Crown and "E" or Enfield markings indicate a definite British Cash & Carry Thompson gun. These are common markings. I have no idea what the "J" mark is all about but unknown letter markings on these old guns are somewhat common. 10. The L drum you pictured is not original to S-30578. It is a modern-day L drum manufactured and sold in the 70s and 80s. 11. I doubt British Inspectors were at the Savage factory when S-30578 was manufactured. I believe these marks were applied at the Enfield Small Arms Factory. Great Britain did hire Inspectors but from what I can tell, it was not a quick process. When the Lend-Lease Act was passed in March 1941 and the US government eventually took control of small arms manufacturing, everything changed regarding inspectors. More research needs to be done in this area. The round GEG stamp on the left side receiver is George E. Goll, the Chief Engineer and Inspector for Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Savage Arms was a subcontractor to Auto-Ordnance. It was Auto-Ordnance Corporation, not Savage Arms, that was selling all these Thompson guns to the British Ministry of Supply (MoS). What did I miss? Please ask questions. Again, I really like S-30578. How common are the semi-automatic converted Thompson guns in Belgium? If S-30578 was properly registered in the USA, I would guess it would be worth somewhere between $25,000 and $30,000. An excellent book for you would be Frank Iannamico's, American Thunder, Third Edition. It will answer a lot of questions. You could also consider, Great Britain-The Tommy Gun Story. Both are available on Amazon.com.

Patrick Vdv, Welcome to the Thompson forum! You can post or attach your pictures on this thread. You have an early Savage Thompson. I am sure the forum members will be able to answer all your questions.

tal35, If you own a M1A1 Thompson with the serial number 703XXX, you need to purchase a copy of Frank Iannamico's, American Thunder, Third Edition. In hardcover for 40 bucks, it is the best deal in the Thompson community. This book is the authority on the World War II Thompson guns. It will tell you all you need to know about your M1A1. I would get one while still available. When this book goes out of print, the price will be much higher.

jonnyjon88, An excellent decision. I agree with Doug Quaid, above. Have PK. check the chamber dimensions. I understand this is an easy fix for a Thompson smith.

Richard, Thank you for an excellent overview of what happens when trying to buy gun stuff overseas without proper permissions. Years ago, I used an ATF Form 6 to import a Colt era Thompson firing pin, extractor, hammer pin and several springs. I learned quickly these items were Implements of War! I was lucky in that these parts came from an overseas business. The US Custom forms wanted to know the identity and address and/or contact information of the shipper. I also had to check the box that these parts were not USGI and provide supporting documentation to that effect. If USGI parts, I believe State Department permission was also required, something I hear is very difficult or impossible to obtain. All in all, it was not really a difficult process to do things legally. I always thought gun stocks would be importable without special permission. I guess not if a WWII 98K rifle stock is not allowed without an approved ATF Form 6. Thank you David for this wonderful forum! The signing of US Custom's document is serious business. Machine gun ownership is a privilege in the USA. I would not do anything to jeopardize this prized right. I will gladly pay Richard or APEX a little extra to know I don't have to worry about someone knocking on my door. +1

Richard from APEX, I assume APEX does a lot of import deals with proper permissions. Is it legal for a civilian in the USA to purchase 3 USGI actuators from someone in Europe or overseas? Or are you taking a chance it is a scam? Or the items may be seized by US Customs? And you also may get a knock on your door by someone you really do not want to speak with. Any insight you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Richard, So very cool. Thank you for posting. +1 I can see why they wanted an immediate display. Perhaps it is me getting older, but I like the show part now just as much as the shooting. It would be a lot of fun to be there!

+1 for eagle eye Ross!!! Thanks!

My research revealed Gordon originally listed his Spare Part Kit at $275 in 2004. If a second kit was purchased at the same time, the price for the second kit was $250. Sometime around 2011 the price of one kit was dropped to $250. In 2013, the price dropped again to $225. The production run was 500 units. These same kits are still being sold today by a family friend of Gordon. This information and much more is available in my second book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. Gordon Herigstad passed away on April 23, 2025. He was 76 years old.

The link works! Thanks. For some reason this SPK has been pulled from auction. Did someone purchase it offline? These kits do not come up for sale often. While I usually don't look at any parts contained in a Spare Part Kit (SPK) during an evaluation until last, the bright blue firing pin and hammer pin jumped out at me. The SPK looks to be an original Worcester Pressed Steel kit but the coloring does not seem normal. It is definitely not one of the two outlier SPKs I have identified. I believe I see the round swirls on the outside rivet head but would want to examine this in-person to be sure. Or have a detailed MACRO picture of the rivet head. The shape of the crushed or mashed inside rivet is perfect so that adds to my thoughts the rivet is original. However, I find it interesting the rivet head shows a lot of wear and the finish on the front of the SPK appears perfect. I wonder if some of the outside areas of this SPK have been touched up as the colors don't really match and appear patchy. With most SPKs, you will see wear on the ends and in the middle from the leather straps in a hardcase exposing the copper flashing and bear metal underneath. While I don't think any SPK is worth 10.5K, I would suggest an interested enthusiast perform an in-person examination of this kit should it became available again. These kits cost too much money to settle for something that may have issues. Comments everyone. All good stuff!!!

The Moor, Can you provide a link on the completed gunbroker.com auction or more information on the fake Spare Part Kit you referenced above. I have written extensively on this accessory in several of my books and am always looking for new information, especially on fakes or kits that appear different. I do remember Auto-Weapons.com had what appeared to be an original Spare Part Kit listed at $10,000 a while back. I don't see it listed anymore. Thanks!

Same seller as on ebay: Colt Thompson 1921 Reproduction Spare Parts Tin with Accessories - Collectible Gun Parts & Accessories at GunBroker.com : 1099336562 When these are gone, I would guess the price and desirability will increase. This may be a good time to buy and put away for the future. If you are or plan to be a part of the Thompson community for a long time, consider it an investment.

21 years later - Wow!!! I have 6 or 7 Colt's pictured with the added U.S. and A1 markings along with the 8 overstamp. See Chapter 3, Colt's in the U.S. Army, in my fourth book, Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More. These Colt's also have the Ordnance Inspector mark from Major Charles S. Reed: CSR.