Prototype Thompson 22 Kit Spotted On Youtube

[PhilOhio]

Update about getting on the list.

 

There's been a very encouraging response, in less than half a day. But for those who didn't include it in their first E-mail, Merle requests you send him another with your mailing address and phone number. I'm updating my earlier post to reflect this. Thanks.

 

Jim,

 

As I said before, the mags are 30 rounders. I don't know how much extra ones will be, but not expensive.

 

 

Merry Ploughboy,

 

On this setup, the ejector is an extension on the rear of the barrel insert. And minutes ago, Merle decided to go with stainless steel. Class all the way. Good that you asked and reminded me. As I recall, on the "other" kit, and this one, you have to remove the .45 ejector to install the .22 barrel insert. I made a little threaded blank filler with a knurled head to keep dirt out of the ejector threads when I have the .22 kit on, but maybe that's my usual overkill. But I didn't like to see that empty hole just sitting there.

 

Lancer,

 

I'm just happy to be able to help. You're gonna love this thing

 

 

[kruuth]

I wonder how many people have already signed onto the list.

 

BTW..how do you tell which type of barrel you have? Mine is marked with an S making it a savage. What is the deal with WH barrels?

 

I'm trying to get you guys something a little bit more substantial than "just wait a little while longer". Hope to post shortly.

......SNIP......

 

OBTW, when I spoke to the lady over at black dog(I think she's the owner's daughter) I mentioned that there would be a great response to this kit.

 

Something I'm wondering though...are the magazines going to be plastic? I would be a little worried about wear on a plastic magazine in f/a mode.

Edited March 4, 2009 by kruuth

[Tman]

Something I'm wondering though...are the magazines going to be plastic? I would be a little worried about wear on a plastic magazine in f/a mode.

 

If BDM makes these mags out of the same material as their M16/AR15 mags, you won't have anything to worry about.

 

I got my space reserved on the list.

 

[PhilOhio]

Kruuth,

 

You need to read the posts a bit more thoroughly. As explained many times, the post-war WH/Numrich barrels were chambered with smaller diameter reamers, to commercial specs. Military Thompsons were chambered with larger diameter reamers, to military specs, which dictated looser chambers, to improve high speed feeding and lessen the chance of jams under dirty battlefield conditions. The .22 conversion kit barrel inserts have a rear profile which closely fits the chambered section of only the milspec .45 barrel. They won't go into a tighter post-war barrel's chamber area.

 

How do you tell what you have? If it has military era markings, such as your Savage barrel, then a military chamber is what you've got. The kit barrel will fit. If it has no known military era markings, then you probably have a post-war barrel, unless you physically measure chamber dimensions and learn otherwise. You make a Cerosafe chamber casting and mike it, then compare your numbers with published commercial and military chamber dimensions. And I've already explained what to do if you find you have a commercial (tighter) chamber and want to use the new kit; Merle will rechamber it.

 

We've also been all through the questions about the magazines, having explained that they are plastic 30-rounders and that new injection molds have been made to produce a variation that snaps right into a TSMG without an adapter.

 

Wear on plastic mag lips? I worried about it, too. But so far, both Merle and I have shot a lot of rounds through these and the lips are fine. I think a metal lip insert would be a good idea, but let's wait and see how it goes "as is". A lot of rounds are being fired through a lot of other synthetic mags for .22 rifles, and it seems to be working out O.K. It relates to using the right type of synthetic material for the wear area. For some applications, a self-lubricating material, such as nylon, is actually better than metal. This is a good manufacturer of good stuff. If field use suggests there is need for a change, he'll make it. He's already sold tons of these mags, the variation snapping into an AR-15 or M-16 for use with Atchisson or Ciener .22 kits, and customers seem to be happy. Those mags sell from $25 to $30 each.

[kruuth]

I should have clarified my barrel question. I know that the chamber dimensions were different. You're right I should have read closer. I typed it and then realized that it had already been answered.

 

As far as the mags this is good to know. Since I hadn't seen Merle's magazines or these new ones I was left to wonder. The vector uzi kit appears to use actual 25 round UZI mags with an insert in them for 22. I'm looking forward to seeing good clear shots of the mags and the kit itself.

[PhilOhio]

I should have clarified my barrel question. I know that the chamber dimensions were different. You're right I should have read closer. I typed it and then realized that it had already been answered.

 

As far as the mags this is good to know. Since I hadn't seen Merle's magazines or these new ones I was left to wonder. The vector uzi kit appears to use actual 25 round UZI mags with an insert in them for 22. I'm looking forward to seeing good clear shots of the mags and the kit itself.

 

The "other" kit also uses an extruded aluminum insert in a standard straight TSMG stick mag shell. This is the worst of all possible ideas, inviting feed problems and jamming. I've got one of the things and, in my opinion, it's a total bummer. Yes, I know, some of you guys have them and they work just fine. But, I assure you, not nearly as well as this new slightly curved mag will work. Form must follow function. The nature of rimmed .22 LR rounds is that they need a curved mag, to match the curvature of the stack of ammo inside them...unless you take special measures in designing a follower to partially compensate for this problem, and also limit mag capacity to something pretty low. A completely different approach has been made with some of the hi-cap transparent plastic mags for the Ruger 10/22. They work, but become very complicated. Simple and reliable is better for full auto.

 

On the new kit, more good news. Not only will the ejector be stainless steel, but it will be thicker and stronger than the "other" one. The numbers are on their way to the guy with the laser cutting equipment, for a first run. And no, one of these good ones would not be a drop-in retrofit on the "other" kits.

 

The waiting list is getting up to where it is a significant percentage of the total for the planned initial run. It might not pay for fence riders to wait and see how it goes, as it's hard to say when a second run would be done. Those involved feel a conservative estimate is best, as it is difficult to guess the size of the market for these...so...just a word to the wise.

 

I think if I were a purchaser of one of the "other" kits which has not been heavily modified for durability, reliability, and rate of fire, I might think seriously about getting on the list for one of these new ones, while trying to move the "other" kit before the word gets around that... There is no comparison between the bolt assemblies and magazines, for example.

 

I wonder if the "other" kits might become rare collectors items very soon, along with everything else coming from that outfit? Maybe you want to hold on to them.

 

Merle got a report about of one of the "other" barrel inserts being shot out after about 5,000 rounds of .22 LR. That should not happen. The materials for the barrel on this new kit are being carefully chosen. With modern ammo, a half way decent .22 barrel should go 20,000 rounds with no problem; at least that.

 

Anyway, near term prospects for expanded full auto fun are looking bright. We need anything we can get, to distract us from news of the latest initiatives from The Obamanables.

 

Merle reports the list has grown fast today, and thanks those who called or E-mailed him with the requested additional personal info.

 

[Merry Ploughboy]

Phil, Thanks for the good news re the ejector. I may be in on this since the swap out should be relatively fast and painless.

 

The mags BDM now sells for the Uzi FA .22 LR conversion are all plastic and cost $30 each for quantities less than 10. There is a discount for orders of 10 or more. And they work better than the Vector mags that were made from cut down steel mags. I haven't shot mine enough to see how durable they are.

[arch stanton]

Phil, Thanks for the good news re the ejector. I may be in on this since the swap out should be relatively fast and painless.

 

The mags BDM now sells for the Uzi FA .22 LR conversion are all plastic and cost $30 each for quantities less than 10. There is a discount for orders of 10 or more. And they work better than the Vector mags that were made from cut down steel mags. I haven't shot mine enough to see how durable they are.

 

I have shot 10K rnds through an UZI with the Black Dog 22 LR mags and not one problem. I am going to be using his mags in my 22 UZI conversion kits that are being made up.

 

Later Joe

[PhilOhio]

Phil, Thanks for the good news re the ejector. I may be in on this since the swap out should be relatively fast and painless.

 

The mags BDM now sells for the Uzi FA .22 LR conversion are all plastic and cost $30 each for quantities less than 10. There is a discount for orders of 10 or more. And they work better than the Vector mags that were made from cut down steel mags. I haven't shot mine enough to see how durable they are.

 

I have shot 10K rnds through an UZI with the Black Dog 22 LR mags and not one problem. I am going to be using his mags in my 22 UZI conversion kits that are being made up.

 

Later Joe

 

That's good to hear. I don't keep up on Uzis, and did not realize Kevin was making mags for that .22 conversion. But the same principals apply, he understands them, and his stuff works.

 

[kruuth]

I didn't either, then I read Ploughboy's post and I had to order some of these. I have both variants of the vector uzi 22 mags and after about 2 years I've finally gotten them to work, but they are extremely temperamental. I'm looking forward to playing with some new mags. It'd be cool if they made some 50 rounders for the uzi, but I'm pretty sure that would make the gun look like it had grown a tail

 

 

Phil, Thanks for the good news re the ejector. I may be in on this since the swap out should be relatively fast and painless.

 

The mags BDM now sells for the Uzi FA .22 LR conversion are all plastic and cost $30 each for quantities less than 10. There is a discount for orders of 10 or more. And they work better than the Vector mags that were made from cut down steel mags. I haven't shot mine enough to see how durable they are.

 

I have shot 10K rnds through an UZI with the Black Dog 22 LR mags and not one problem. I am going to be using his mags in my 22 UZI conversion kits that are being made up.

 

Later Joe

 

That's good to hear. I don't keep up on Uzis, and did not realize Kevin was making mags for that .22 conversion. But the same principals apply, he understands them, and his stuff works.

 

[PhilOhio]

Last night I realized I had said something unintentionally misleading about the possibility that, later, a version of the new .22 conversion kit might be available with a 16"+ barrel insert for the WH semis. Not likely any time soon. I was not considering that the Ciener and Blackdog bolt designs are strictly for full auto open bolt guns. A major redesign would be necessary for the semis. It can be done, of course. A lot of the semis are out there, and new ones are being sold all the time. In the long run, it might be a better commercial venture than .22 kits for full auto guns, due to market size. But now is not yet the time. I wonder if Kahr has ever thought of putting the Numrich .22 semi Thompson back into production? Scary thought, though, considering... Those were neat little guns, but they never did the extra hand fitting of the feed area and the tuning necessary to get them to run reliably from the factory. Imagine Kahr trying to pull that off.

[kruuth]

Last night I realized I had said something unintentionally misleading about the possibility that, later, a version of the new .22 conversion kit might be available with a 16"+ barrel insert for the WH semis. Not likely any time soon. I was not considering that the Ciener and Blackdog bolt designs are strictly for full auto open bolt guns. A major redesign would be necessary for the semis. It can be done, of course. A lot of the semis are out there, and new ones are being sold all the time. In the long run, it might be a better commercial venture than .22 kits for full auto guns, due to market size. But now is not yet the time. I wonder if Kahr has ever thought of putting the Numrich .22 semi Thompson back into production? Scary thought, though, considering... Those were neat little guns, but they never did the extra hand fitting of the feed area and the tuning necessary to get them to run reliably from the factory. Imagine Kahr trying to pull that off.

 

While I think that there would be a bigger market for a 22 s/a kit I think it would have to clock in at under the cost of a comparable 22 rifle. IMO a s/a Thompson is more or less a rifle chambered in 45. I think that if someone would want to buy a kit it would have to offer something that would make it seriously stand out from other 22 rifles out there. While I agree that a Thompson S/A would certainly be cool, my reason for wanting a 22 kit is so that I can shoot F/A cheaper. Just my thoughts there. Either way I think that no matter whether or not Black Dog offers a S/A kit in 22, the F/A kit will be the kit that they are known for. Just reading what is here, I think a lot of interest is going to be generated once these are out "in the wild" and people can see them up close. Every time I take my Uzi to the range I get more attention when it's in 22 than when it's in 9mm. Maybe people just think 22 is more fun?

[Merry Ploughboy]

"I have shot 10K rnds through an UZI with the Black Dog 22 LR mags and not one problem. I am going to be using his mags in my 22 UZI conversion kits that are being made up."

 

 

Joe - how many mags did you use? Your message is unclear. Was that 10K rounds through 1 mag, 1000 rounds through each of 10 mags, 100 rounds through 100 mags, 1 round through each of 10K mags, or what? I've easily put 10K rounds of .22 through each of some Eagle mags in a Ruger 10/22 semi that I've had since about 1980.

 

 

Also, what kind of loader did you use, and how many rounds per mag did you typically load?

 

Thanks.

 

[arch stanton]

An accurate count would be 5K through one magazine no problems and 2K through five magazines so that would be 15K total plus any other misc mags I have shot since. The first two stated runs were done at two different times. Most of the mags were loaded to 30 rounds I always back off a couple, they do hold 32 rnds. I modified an UpLula loader by narrowing down the metal tang just to fit into the mag it works quite well.

 

Later Joe

[kruuth]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I got the uzi mags I ordered from Black Dog and these things are great. Lightweight, reliable, and easy to clean. It's hard to tell from the video whether or not the uzi mag is a variation on Merle's design, or if the 22 kit is using a variation of this, or something completely different. No matter though, my faith in Black Dog is cemented now. These are the first two 22lr mags I've ever used that didn't require some sort of tweaking to get them going.

[PhilOhio]

Merle's modification for Ciener .22 conversion kit bolts.

 

Well, more good news. Merle asked me to let all of you know that he is willing to modify previously manufactured Ciener kit bolts to specs for the new kit. It should also reduce rate of fire to about the same as a regular '28, because it makes your bolt heavier. You also get more inertia behind the firing pin strike.

 

What happens is that you would send Merle your light alloy Ciener bolt. He removes and saves the good part, the round steel head. The square part, the alloy carrier, has the bottom milled off of it and replaced with durable steel. This gives you steel-to-steel sear engagement.

 

Merle is also trying to improve upon extraction and ejection of misfires. This is a weakness partially due to the poor quality of much current U.S. ammunition. There is a high rate of misfires, due to poor quality control of the priming process, and many brands do not have a very distinct 90-degree edge between case and rim, so the extractor slips off, except when the round fires and is blown backward. We're looking at some successful designs where this doesn't happen, to see if the physics concepts can be worked into the new kit before any are shipped; a philosophy seemingly not shared by all "other" manufacturers. Picking duds out with your fingernails gets to be an old thing.

 

So if any of you are not happy with your Ciener bolts, their high rate of fire, or aluminum sear surfaces already showing wear, you might want to E-mail Merle (address way up above). No, I don't know the cost, but Merle is always reasonable. And he might not want to modify your bolt until he is sure he has this extraction-of-bum-duds thing licked; the issue just came up this evening. And again, whatever the solution, it will be worked into the new kits before any are shipped; got to be perfect. But then, you know Merle...

[wv1928]

It almost sounds to good to be true. Count me in. Hope everything works out for them.

[kruuth]

It almost sounds to good to be true. Count me in. Hope everything works out for them.

 

It's not here yet. When the units start going out I thing a lot of people are going to breathe a little easier.

[PhilOhio]

Merle's been tinkering with extractor and ejector refinements over the weekend, and testing the improvements with a broad enough variety of ammo so there will be no more of this only-one-kind-works, as with the "other" kit.

 

It does take time to get all this verified and set into stone, to be confident that there will be no bad surprises when people begin receiving their kits and trying them out in a lot of different Thompsons. That's the hard part. But the good thing is that the military did a fine job with the WW-II acceptance tetsting process; guns were in-spec or not accepted. And the current debugging is being done with in-specs guns. So if you have one, it should run with the new kit.

 

And these kits are only for full autos; the Kahr Factor will not apply, since they made none of these.

 

Postwar full-auto Numrich guns were also built on military receivers. The question is whether they came from guns which had been accepted, as the markings would attest, or whether they came out of some of those parts crates George bought, and had not previously been complete and accepted guns. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that if anybody has a problem with one of these new kits, it will not remain a problem for long, and neither the manufacturer nor designer will be trying to tell the customer that it's all his fault, and he can go _____ himself.

 

So take heart. This is a project where, if it's not quite completed, it's because somebody is doing his level best to improve it before the finished product gets to you; something pretty rare these days. But then, rare people are running it.

[kruuth]

Any word on the barrels yet?

[PhilOhio]

Any word on the barrels yet?

 

No.

[OldFalGuy]

Just thought I would bring this subject back up for comments by those possibly in the know and see what progress has occurred during this last year. Glad to hear Black Dog is doing the production and making magazine-

Now if Merle just come up with a reliable drum design wouldn't we all be in Black Dog Heaven.

[kruuth]

Just thought I would bring this subject back up for comments by those possibly in the know and see what progress has occurred during this last year. Glad to hear Black Dog is doing the production and making magazine-

Now if Merle just come up with a reliable drum design wouldn't we all be in Black Dog Heaven.

 

Actually, I spoke with black dog and they're making an adapter to shoot their 22 pps drum on the thompson....

[OldFalGuy]

That drum addition would be welcome for sure- saw the video Dan made with the Thompson-

BDM website says this drum not work with anything else but the PPsH and not recommend for F/A.

Hopefully they will do their voodoo and make them work for AR's too and only require an adapter change between

different platforms.

 

[photonance]

That drum addition would be welcome for sure- saw the video Dan made with the Thompson-

BDM website says this drum not work with anything else but the PPsH and not recommend for F/A.

Hopefully they will do their voodoo and make them work for AR's too and only require an adapter change between

different platforms.

 

Maybe Deerslayer will clarify, but when I spoke with him about a month or so ago, he said that there would be an adapter available (his prototype) for the PPSH drum to fit the Thompson. He designed it to take on and off with a wing nut, so you can use them drum to drum. As far as he indicated, it will work in full auto, with very little modification to the drum. I noticed a while back that BDM does have a PPSH drum modified for AR's as well.