'28's Need Love Too

[rustebadge]

I want to say thank you for the great interest all of you share for the Thomspon SMG. If you're like me, the attraction is much deeper than just the firearm itself (though that would be enough). For me the Thompson conjures up a great pride in my country, reminds me of the great sacrifice others have paid on my behalf, and represents that timeless American spirit to excel. I know, its corny but thats the way I feel. And I'm glad that I have not become too cultured to feel any other way.

 

 

This is my first post and I trust you'll forgive me since I'm certain this subject has been previously addressed. Though much has been documented on the well deserving Colt '21, my primary interest lies with the Model 1928 A1/C. I stumbled on a forum discussion centered around the '28AC models but am unable to locate it again. I would think that much could be discovered about the '28 AC model if we were able to compile and compare available data on these arms. Have data sheets been collected by a single source on the '28AC's and if so, is it available? It seems that there is so much commanality of physical characteristics, location of discovery, and etc. that much could be gleened from such an undertaking. I know that the '21 is glorious but I think the '28 deserves its limelight.

 

I have an AO 1928 A1/C. As is typical, "US" has been ground off and a "C" has been overstamped on top of the "1". An "X" has been stamped to the end of the receiver serial number, which is AO - 153029X. The sn on the frame has no suffix. Bolt is a nickel Savage and the blish block is AOC. The brl, Cutts comp, sling swivels, mag. release, selectors and actuator are all dull blue. The finish is a med. to dark gray. The stock has the cross-bolt modificattion. It has a Lyman "L" sight with "in the white" rivets. There are no inspection marks, no ordnance stamps or rebuild stamps.

 

Some thoughts: Why the "in the white" rear sights rivets? No shadowing or marks exists to indicate that a sight change has occurred. (I have seen several Thompsons with "in the white" rivets including a vet bringback M1A1 for sale at ColorodoCLassIII. Also, I occassionally see a pic with a Thompson displaying such rivets. My first inclination is that this was a replacement sight since most other Thompsons have finished rivets. BUT I spoke with the departmental supply sgt. (now retired) who said that the had control of the Thompsons from the mid-60's until his retirement in 1992 and that no modifications or repairs were made. The departmental Thompsons stayed in the supply vault. Changed before he got there? Maybe but he and several other retirees say no changes ever occurred to their Thompsons and none were returned to the factory Maybe the sights were attached "as ordered" from CPD. Maybe the gun was built from inventory parts to fill the police order.

 

All of the gentlemen I originally spoke to in 1992 (when I obtained my Thompson) are now gone, except for the supply sgt. These men had retired in the '70's. I talked to the sgt. last week again just to verify my old questions and answer some new ones. The CPD museuam curator is researching the departmental Thompsons now. He and the retirees told me that the '28's were obtained in the mid-40's. Several pics exist of the Thompsons in use at CPD in the '40's and '50's. A vice-officer, Robert Meldon is photographed firing one of the Thompsons while trying to flush out sme armed robbery suspects in the late '40's. If this info. can be verified (and the curator says it can), it creates in me another series of questions. Who was selling Thompsons to PD's in the forties? Were there police equipment distributors selling Thompsons? Or were purchases made directly from the manufacturer? Is there evidence that the factory recalled police Thompsons just to re-fit the stock with cross-bolts? I doubt it. Maybe modifications were made to inventory prior to delivery. Just a guess. This would account for the many early-finished PD '28's with the upgrade.

 

 

I would love to hear from other '28AC owners.

 

Thanks again and keep up the good work.

 

 

rustebadge

[The1930sRust]

Welcome, Rustbadge! Hey, another Rust here...

 

I agree the attraction goes well beyond the firearm, and I only own a West Hurley. Not corny at all. I cannot address many of your questions, but I hope others will chime in. I look forward to the read...

 

CG

[Lancer]

rustebadge

 

There are a number of threads in the archives relating to Bridgeport 1928ac's. A quick search will turn them up. The only problem with the archived threads is that PhilOhio deleted most of his posts many of which had much valuable input. The thread I have linked to below includes thoughts from Frank I. on these Thompsons and how early (wartime)documented evidence on 28ac's is so hard to come by. If you are able to get wartime documented evidence in regard to your 28ac it would be of great interest.

 

My 28ac is serial # AO150969x, Albany, Ga. PD gun. What department does CPD refer to?

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...t=0&start=0

[Norm]

Rustebadge,

 

Welcome to the board.

 

The 21 is a great gun with it's place in history, but the 28s and M1s were the war-horses that helped us win WW2.

 

The TSMG (in general) is one of a few things that reminds of America's "old school" way of just designing something that worked and did what it did well.

 

Another company that gave me the same feeling was Lionel. I have a Lionel train on my mantle that was built in 1938 and it still runs! They made toy trains that would last forever and there was just a certain fascination that you only got from a Lionel train...the same comes from a Thompson- 21, 28 or M1.

 

Just my $.02 worth. :slap:

 

Norm

[rustebadge]

rustebadge

 

There are a number of threads in the archives relating to Bridgeport 1928ac's. A quick search will turn them up. The only problem with the archived threads is that PhilOhio deleted most of his posts many of which had much valuable input. The thread I have linked to below includes thoughts from Frank I. on these Thompsons and how early (wartime)documented evidence on 28ac's is so hard to come by. If you are able to get wartime documented evidence in regard to your 28ac it would be of great interest.

 

My 28ac is serial # AO150969x, Albany, Ga. PD gun. What department does CPD refer to?

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...t=0&start=0

 

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the info. Even though these PD '28's have inconsistencies, there seems to be as much in common. Wish we had a data base for the '28 PD Thompsons.

 

My Thompson came out of Cincinatti, OH PD. And I'm near Atl so Albany is not too far away. Its neat that you have a Thompson from Albany PD. Do you have much info. on your '28 regarding its time with Albany PD?

 

Greg

[TD.]

rustebadge,

Welcome to the Board.

 

Yes, you do have a very historical Thompson, most likely one sold by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries, Inc. in the 1944 to 1946 time frame. If you have the original IRS Form 5 to the Cincinnati Police Department, it will provide the date your Thompson was "born" on the NFA Registry and the name of the seller. If you do not have this document, I suggest you submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to ATF. I can help you with this submission (if needed).

 

There is a lot known about these Thompson's, but still plenty more to learn. Frank Iannamico is the authority on this Thompson variation. I highly recommend his book, American Thunder II. Frank also wrote a short section dealing with the 1928AC Thompson's in Tracie Hill's new book, The Ultimate Thompson Book. This is another must have book for the Thompson enthusiast.

 

I like your idea of a database on this variation.

 

I believe after Thompson production stopped, the remaining employees of the Auto-Ordnance Division took the remaining parts of Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport manufactured Thompsons and assembled as many Thompsons as they could. These were then marketed to mainly police departments in the USA. This variation is almost like the West Hurley 28 Thompsons in that there is no real standardization of parts, finish, wood, etc. I also believe long time Auto-Ordnance employee George Goll was behind this marketing effort. However, these are only my thoughts; no evidence of this has been uncovered. I do welcome any other thoughts on this subject. Maybe Frank will join in.

[blueline541]

I have an AO 1928 A1/C. As is typical, "US" has been ground off and a "C" has been overstamped on top of the "1". An "X" has been stamped to the end of the receiver serial number, which is AO - 153029X. The sn on the frame has no suffix. Bolt is a nickel Savage and the blish block is AOC. The brl, Cutts comp, sling swivels, mag. release, selectors and actuator are all dull blue. The finish is a med. to dark gray. The stock has the cross-bolt modificattion. It has a Lyman "L" sight with "in the white" rivets. There are no inspection marks, no ordnance stamps or rebuild stamps.

 

I would love to hear from other '28AC owners. rustebadge

 

 

 

My AO 1928ac happens to be 153076X and supposedly came from the Tennessee Highway Patrol. The gun is sporting an adjustable Lyman sight and a finned barrel, neither of which I believe are original to the gun. But it does have a matching upper and lower. And, happily, it is making its way toward the top of PK's list for some TLC.

[TSMGguy]

Welcome!

 

I have a M1928A1, Sn. 339xxx. It has almost all of the original Dulite (blued) finish. The rear sight rivets are bright. There's only one way this could have happened: the sight was installed after the receiver was finished. Makes sense, as the sight was provided by the sub contractor (Lyman) in a finished state, that is, blued, with a bright rear sight leaf / ladder.

 

When the simple "L" rear sight was substituted, it was still provided by Lyman, and still installed after the receiver was finished. The rivets were still bright and unfinished.

 

As your research will show, no TSMGs left the original manufacturer (AO or Savage) with a Parkerized finish. There's lots of confusion on this, as the original receiver had an extremely dull appearence, having been sand blasted before finishing. This is easily mistaken for a parked finish. Some owners of Parked guns are just in deep denial, refusing to believe that their baby has ever been through arsenal rebuild, or refinished since by someone outside of the depot rebuild program.

 

So, if every componant of the gun is blued and has a semi-glossy appearence (except for the bolt, which may be "bright"), the finish just might be original. We call it "blued" but the finsih of each part looked black when it was new.

 

Many guns with the "C" serial marking were pulled brand new off of the assembly line for delivery to police departments and for other law enforcement use. As these were never accepted by the Army ordnance district involved, they lack the typical ordnance acceptance markings. All other receiver roll markings are the same as Army accepted guns. If the "A1" marking has been ground off but all other ordnance acceptance markings are present, then the gun likely found its way into law enforcement hands after it had been decalred surplus to military needs.

 

Oh, and Pics! We want pics of your gun!

[rustebadge]

rustebadge,

Welcome to the Board.

 

Yes, you do have a very historical Thompson, most likely one sold by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries, Inc. in the 1944 to 1946 time frame. If you have the original IRS Form 5 to the Cincinnati Police Department, it will provide the date your Thompson was "born" on the NFA Registry and the name of the seller. If you do not have this document, I suggest you submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to ATF. I can help you with this submission (if needed).

 

There is a lot known about these Thompson's, but still plenty more to learn. Frank Iannamico is the authority on this Thompson variation. I highly recommend his book, American Thunder II. Frank also wrote a short section dealing with the 1928AC Thompson's in Tracie Hill's new book, The Ultimate Thompson Book. This is another must have book for the Thompson enthusiast.

 

I like your idea of a database on this variation.

 

I believe after Thompson production stopped, the remaining employees of the Auto-Ordnance Division took the remaining parts of Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport manufactured Thompsons and assembled as many Thompsons as they could. These were then marketed to mainly police departments in the USA. This variation is almost like the West Hurley 28 Thompsons in that there is no real standardization of parts, finish, wood, etc. I also believe long time Auto-Ordnance employee George Goll was behind this marketing effort. However, these are only my thoughts; no evidence of this has been uncovered. I do welcome any other thoughts on this subject. Maybe Frank will join in.

 

 

 

Thanks TD. A search for original documentation of my Thompson is underway at the CPD, however the chances of locating any are pretty slim. And I will take you up on your offer of filing a FOIA request. Never done it but willing to try. Feel free to email me.

 

I have American Thunder II which has some info. on the PD AC's. I believe enough info. currently exists on these PD AC's for us to draw some very educated conclusions. Unfortunately, the info. is with each owner individually and needs to be collected.

 

I found some of my notes made when I spoke to Class III afficianodo J. Curtis Earl in 1992 about these variations. He had some opinions that he had developed early in his days of collecting. His thoughts were based on very limited info. at the time, which I believe led him to some wrong conclusions. With the greatest respect for Mr. Earl (even though he is now dead, he was and still is the class III king. He had things we only dream of), I think he was wrong about several things. His opinion was that these '28's returned to the US after WWII via the US Gov't, not civilian importers many years afterwards. The Gov't. ground off the US prior to release to PD's and stamped an "X" after the sn to signify reimportation. I think he was correct when he opined not to worry about Thompsons with various vendor components, especially in mid to late contract smg's. By this time in the contract component variations were common due to vendor supplies availability, shipping limits and time frames, components integration during assembly, etc. The issue is not components but originality. His concern was whether the gun had been rebuilt, repaired, refinished, etc. Originality was and is everything within the pedigree not components. Many of the same questions we have today.

 

Your post-contract theory sounds plausible and very likely possible.

 

Thanks again. Your opinion is valued and I appreciate your response.

 

greg

 

 

Edited May 6, 2009 by rustebadge

[rustebadge]

Welcome!

 

I have a M1928A1, Sn. 339xxx. It has almost all of the original Dulite (blued) finish. The rear sight rivets are bright. There's only one way this could have happened: the sight was installed after the receiver was finished. Makes sense, as the sight was provided by the sub contractor (Lyman) in a finished state, that is, blued, with a bright rear sight leaf / ladder.

 

When the simple "L" rear sight was substituted, it was still provided by Lyman, and still installed after the receiver was finished. The rivets were still bright and unfinished.

 

As your research will show, no TSMGs left the original manufacturer (AO or Savage) with a Parkerized finish. There's lots of confusion on this, as the original receiver had an extremely dull appearence, having been sand blasted before finishing. This is easily mistaken for a parked finish. Some owners of Parked guns are just in deep denial, refusing to believe that their baby has ever been through arsenal rebuild, or refinished since by someone outside of the depot rebuild program.

 

So, if every componant of the gun is blued and has a semi-glossy appearence (except for the bolt, which may be "bright"), the finish just might be original. We call it "blued" but the finsih of each part looked black when it was new.

 

Many guns with the "C" serial marking were pulled brand new off of the assembly line for delivery to police departments and for other law enforcement use. As these were never accepted by the Army ordnance district involved, they lack the typical ordnance acceptance markings. All other receiver roll markings are the same as Army accepted guns. If the "A1" marking has been ground off but all other ordnance acceptance markings are present, then the gun likely found its way into law enforcement hands after it had been decalred surplus to military needs.

 

Oh, and Pics! We want pics of your gun!

 

Thanks TSMGuy

 

Pics are on the way eventually. Have you seen any pics of the "Russian" (or other) Thompson still in the crates? Maybe we can see the rivet color in some of these pics. Also, your '28 A1 is a Savage? Thanks for the great info. I'll keep you posted.

Edited May 6, 2009 by rustebadge

[Hawkeye_Joe]

rustebadge, the one you need to ask is schatzperson, he's posted several threads on the crated Russian Thompsons he's handled. He's in Malta and has access to the guns fresh in the crates.

[Lancer]

Do you have much info. on your '28 regarding its time with Albany PD?

 

Greg

 

Greg

No, I do not have a lot of info. There is a metallic type sticker on the butt stock that identifies it as the property of Albany P.D.

I had some e-mail contact with the P.D. several years ago but they showed only passing interest in the gun. One of the old timers on the force remembered shooting it back in the late 70's. They thought it was traded to a dealer in Athens, Ga. (I believe Roger Cox was located in Athens at this time) in the early 80's. They said if any documentation existed on the gun it would be buried in the basement and didn't have the manpower search through old records.

 

The FOIA request I did several years ago confirms a transfer did take place in the early 80's and several other transfers before I purchased it in 2004. Unfortunately the FOIA trail only goes back to 1982, the original transfer to the P.D. is missing.

 

The receiver, barrel, compensator and rear L sight were reparkerized as an assembly on mine so I have no input on the rivets for you. The frame appears to have original finish.

 

If someone starts a data base, I will be happy to contribute in any way I can.

 

[rustebadge]

Welcome!

 

I have a M1928A1, Sn. 339xxx. It has almost all of the original Dulite (blued) finish. The rear sight rivets are bright. There's only one way this could have happened: the sight was installed after the receiver was finished. Makes sense, as the sight was provided by the sub contractor (Lyman) in a finished state, that is, blued, with a bright rear sight leaf / ladder.

 

When the simple "L" rear sight was substituted, it was still provided by Lyman, and still installed after the receiver was finished. The rivets were still bright and unfinished.

 

As your research will show, no TSMGs left the original manufacturer (AO or Savage) with a Parkerized finish. There's lots of confusion on this, as the original receiver had an extremely dull appearence, having been sand blasted before finishing. This is easily mistaken for a parked finish. Some owners of Parked guns are just in deep denial, refusing to believe that their baby has ever been through arsenal rebuild, or refinished since by someone outside of the depot rebuild program.

 

So, if every componant of the gun is blued and has a semi-glossy appearence (except for the bolt, which may be "bright"), the finish just might be original. We call it "blued" but the finsih of each part looked black when it was new.

 

Many guns with the "C" serial marking were pulled brand new off of the assembly line for delivery to police departments and for other law enforcement use. As these were never accepted by the Army ordnance district involved, they lack the typical ordnance acceptance markings. All other receiver roll markings are the same as Army accepted guns. If the "A1" marking has been ground off but all other ordnance acceptance markings are present, then the gun likely found its way into law enforcement hands after it had been decalred surplus to military needs.

 

Oh, and Pics! We want pics of your gun!

 

 

TSMGuy

 

Pics posted under a new topic . Hope they turned out well enough for you to enjoy.