Home Guard Case Study

[rpbcps]

Through the courtesy of Mr I Patrick, I was supplied with the following list of Thompson-related drawings which he has found reference to while he was researching his own interests. Not all of these have been located in the archive so far and some may have vanished.

 

http://www.fototime.com/E5A953A1C521BC4/large.jpg

 

Students should note that copyright of the images of any drawings supplied remains vested in the Trustees of the Royal Armouries - this is a common practice with public institutions here, in contrast with the US Nat Archives which makes their material available for free use with only a nominal charge for converting it into the media format of your choice.

 

Ouch, I can see a few more drawings I would like to purchase in that list, this 'hobby' will be the death of me.

 

Stuart Ivinson was my POC at the Royal Armouries for the purchase of the transit chest scans, nice chap to deal with.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[deerslayer]

I don't think we've seen any examples of the chests converted to hold magazines. Or what looks like a seperate unique magazine #2858 chest. Anybody want one sight unseen?

[Mk VII]

I'd guess that may be the metal box for vehicle stowage that is sometimes encountered.

[rpbcps]

I'd guess that may be the metal box for vehicle stowage that is sometimes encountered.

 

Reading the stencilled makings on the metal box, 'BOX MAGAZINES, 45in CAL THOMPSON, SUBMACHINE GUN Mk1', I think I'd agree.

 

 

 

 

[TSMG28]

I found some documents in the Armouries archive a few years ago that indicated that the metal mag boxes were intended to fit inside a standard Thompson single gun case with the inner dividers removed. If you try the fit, one case can accommodate exactly five of the metal boxes. The intent was to simplify the logistics of delivery. As mentioned earlier, the same case could be set up for a Thompson, a Sten, or the mag boxes, depending on the internal layout.

 

According to that information, the metal boxes were only intended as a method of ammunition/magazine delivery and storage. They were not intended specifically for vehicles.

 

Also, the stencil on the earlier metal boxes used the standard British reference of Thompson Machine Carbine, or simply MC. Some time later 1942 or early 1943 the stencil was changed to Thompson Sub Machine Gun.

 

Roger

Edited November 11, 2017 by TSMG28

[rpbcps]

I found some documents in the Armouries archive a few years ago that indicated that the metal mag boxes were intended to fit inside a standard Thompson single gun case with the inner dividers removed. If you try the fit, one case can accommodate exactly five of the metal boxes. The intent was to simplify the logistics of delivery. As mentioned earlier, the same case could be set up for a Thompson, a Sten, or the mag boxes, depending on the internal layout.

 

According to that information, the metal boxes were only intended as a method of ammunition/magazine delivery and storage. They were not intended specifically for vehicles.

 

Also, the stencil on the earlier metal boxes used the standard British reference of Thompson Machine Carbine, or simply MC. Some time later 1942 or early 1943 the stencil was changed to Thompson Sub Machine Gun.

 

Roger

 

Roger,

Excellent information, I have been looking for one of those metal mag boxes to add to my collection for a long time, but I am a patient man.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[Mk VII]

They'd be a very expensive method of delivery if they were just expendable.

We did come across a reference in the files, during the debate on accepting 30-rnd magazines, to this. It's at p.57 in the book.

 

" The Boxes, Magazine, Thompson which have recently [1942] been approved and are now in production. These tin [sic] boxes pack in their turn into Chests, Thompson, 5 boxes in each chest ...the whole scheme of packing magazines for units ..."

[TSMG28]

Mk VII,

 

That text sounds similar to what I found. I didnt dig out my copies, but will see what I can find.

 

Yes, expensive if just for simple delivery of mags.

 

Richard,

 

I have not seen any of these metal mag boxes in the UK when I have looked at several different venues. For some reason, they all seem to have migrated to North America. All told, Ive probably seen 25+ in the past ten years or so.

 

Roger

[rpbcps]

Mk VII,

 

That text sounds similar to what I found. I didnt dig out my copies, but will see what I can find.

 

Yes, expensive if just for simple delivery of mags.

 

Richard,

 

I have not seen any of these metal mag boxes in the UK when I have looked at several different venues. For some reason, they all seem to have migrated to North America. All told, Ive probably seen 25+ in the past ten years or so.

 

Roger

 

Roger,

Indeed, I drew the same conclusion, all the metal mag boxes I have seen for sale, although there have not been many, have been located in North America.

 

Nature of my character though, I am forever the optimist.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[deerslayer]

Land Rover makes the turn buckles! Hasps aren't quite correct but half way there to finding hardware now if I ever make any more of these boxes.

[Marc O]

Most Canadian arms chests. . .

I've probably had and played with more of the T gun chests than anyone . . .

Ha! Not so fast W2. I imagine your chest may have come through me?

 

I am reasonably certain the transit cases in previous posts such as 107/258 out of Karachi, through UK, then AA (Albion Arms?) in Canada were disposed of by me at OCGA Columbus during the early to mid 1980’s.

Earlier this week I was discussing these transit case carry handles with board member John A.. That discussion motivated me to drag out two I continue to own.

I would enjoy seeing official literature that attributes and supports these M1928 transit chests to the British Home Guard.

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

F9735163-C96F-42ED-BADC-C6785A77F5C3.jpeg

Most Canadian arms chests. . .

I've probably had and played with more of the T gun chests than anyone . . .

Ha! Not so fast W2. I imagine your chest may have come through me?

 

I am reasonably certain the transit cases in previous posts such as 107/258 out of Karachi, through UK, then AA (Albion Arms?) in Canada were disposed of by me at OCGA Columbus during the early to mid 1980’s.

 

Earlier this week I was discussing these transit case carry handles with board member John A.. That discussion motivated me to drag out two I continue to own.

 

I would enjoy seeing official literature that attributes and supports these M1928 transit chests to the British Home Guard.

 

I used to own one of the chests in the thread. I acquired it from a well known collector in the Columbus, Ohio area in the 1980's. I ended up with the chest and he got the L drums. The chest was eventually sold to another collector from Ohio.

[rpbcps]

F9735163-C96F-42ED-BADC-C6785A77F5C3.jpeg

Most Canadian arms chests. . .

I've probably had and played with more of the T gun chests than anyone . . .

Ha! Not so fast W2. I imagine your chest may have come through me?

 

I am reasonably certain the transit cases in previous posts such as 107/258 out of Karachi, through UK, then AA (Albion Arms?) in Canada were disposed of by me at OCGA Columbus during the early to mid 1980’s.

 

Earlier this week I was discussing these transit case carry handles with board member John A.. That discussion motivated me to drag out two I continue to own.

 

I would enjoy seeing official literature that attributes and supports these M1928 transit chests to the British Home Guard.

 

Marc O,

'Home Guard' case is a misnomer in my humble opion.

 

In 1940, when the British placed their inital order for Thompson submachine guns, or as they were originally known in the UK, Thompson machine carbines, the weapons were planned to be distributed as unit weapons.

At that time, all unit weapons, such as Vickers machine guns, Lewis and Bren light machine gun, were all stored in transit chests, as they are nobody's personal responsibility and were issued to whoever ‘signed for them’, from the units armoury, with a set of ancillaries, (magazines, cleaning rod / kit, spares), which were required for the weapons.

Therefore, the War department arranged contracts for the manufacture of transit chests designed specifically for the Thompson machine carbines, and the weapon serial number was pencilled inside the lid, ‘S-85890’, for example.

In June 1941, the decision was taken that the Thompson guns would be issued as a personal weapon and therefore the chests were no longer required, so the contracts were cut short. The War department then looked at converting the transit chests to hold box magazines and also 50 round ‘L’ drums, and drawings for the conversions exist.

In the early days of WW2, there was a stay 'behind unit' created in the UK, called the Auxiliary Units, which were well trained and equipped to carry out a guerrilla war against the Germans should they invade the UK, which was expected to happen during the early day following Dunkirk. They were trained by former fighters from the Spanish civil war amongst others, and had underground bunkers built throughout the UK, some still exist to this day and for some reason the unit was classed as part of the Home Guard, but it was a 'stand-alone' unit in reality. Perhaps, this is where the initial misnomer comes from? I am sure the Auxiliary units had Thompson Transit chest stored away in their weapons and ordnance caches throughout the UK at that time.

Many of the Auxiliary unit members went onto serve in the British Commando units, SAS and SOE, once the threat of invasion ceased, as they were very well trained in the art of guerrilla warfare.

Stay safe

Richard

[Marc O]

Richard,

a misnomer... yes. In my humble opinion it is simply a transit chest.

If someone has a copy of the drawings from RSAF perhaps the nomenclature provides an answer? Oh for the days of resources like the late Herb Woodend.

[rpbcps]

Richard,

a misnomer... yes. In my humble opinion it is simply a transit chest.

 

If someone has a copy of the drawings from RSAF perhaps the nomenclature provides an answer? Oh for the days of resources like the late Herb Woodend.

Marc O,

I have copies of the drawings that I obtained from the Royal Armouries a few years ago, No. DD (E) 25 25 is titled: 'Chest, Thompson, .45-in Machine Carbine MK.1'.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[rpbcps]

Marc O,

The original drawings are in TIFF files, (51MB), so I used the snipping tool to save a copy in JPEG, see below.

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

[Marc O]

Marc O,

The original drawings are in TIFF files, (51MB), so I used the snipping tool to save a copy in JPEG, see below.

...

 

thanks Richard, excellent.

The drawing appears to say under materials: “any available wood”.

I believe mine are pine.

 

 

.

[rpbcps]

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[TD.]

This is a great thread!

 

Marc O,

Could you post a larger size of the document you attached in post #92, i.e., "any available wood."

 

Thanks!

[Marc O]

This is a great thread!

 

Marc O,

Could you post a larger size of the document you attached in post #92, i.e., "any available wood."

 

Thanks!

 

naw, it is simply an enlargement of the document from Richard.

I was seeking confirmation, or clarification of what it appears to read.

 

Richard, over to you ... and The Royal Armouries.

[Marc O]

A portion of the materials list from Sheet 1:

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Marc O

[Marc O]

The Amendments section on Sheet 1 gives information that may answer some previous questions:

(paraphrased)

1) battens removed from bottom of Chest and placed on lid

2) title changed from “Chest, Thompson, Sub-Machine Gun, -.45inch”

 

stencilling is 3/4”.

 

There may be original stencilling under the top coat and replacement stencilling on some existing chests if the manufacture date is early enough.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Marc O

[Mk VII]

Some information on the contractors Nicholls & Janes, who are described as making ammunition boxes and special boxes during the war. 

http://www.nandj.org.uk/

[rpbcps]

In Richard Garcia's last auction, I was fortunate enough to purchase two original drawings for the Transit chest, sheet 1 and 2. 

Been busy since then, so never found the time to post the pictures, but here you go:

[deerslayer]

Next batch i can follow the print!!! Instead of reverse engineered