SubmarinerFan Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Last Saturday a friend and I took a trip to the Crime and Punishment museum in Washington DC. They had a lot of interesting pieces there. Here are a few. Please note, I do not endorse crime or any of the actions associated with the individuals, but these are pieces of history that some forum members here may be interested in. I think that forum members should visit if they are ever in the DC area. It is a good museum, though a bit disturbing with some of the pieces they have, i.e. Ted Bundy's car and Gacy's paintings and paint kit. Thanks! A drawing of a Thompson by George Machine Gun Kelly. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/GeorgeKelly.jpg Dillinger's hamerless Colt pistol he carried on the night of his death. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerPistol.jpg Shell casings fired from one of Dillinger's Thompsons. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerShellCasings.jpg Phone cord used by Dillinger to tie up a bank employee during a robbery. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerWire.jpg Sales literature from Ford Motor Company. The opposite side says, "Will they ever catch Dillinger..." http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/FordSalesLiterature.jpg A piece of Dillinger's hair http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerHair.jpg Dillinger's fake pistol he used to escape from prison. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerFakeGun.jpg An original Colt magazine seized during Dillinger's capture in Arizona. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerClip.jpg A piece of the garage wall where the St. Valentine's Day Massacre took place. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/Brick.jpg An original Colt magazine that was supposedly used during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I thought a 50 round L drum and a 30 round clip were used. This appears to be a 20 round clip. I don't know if it is authentic. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/StValentinesMag.jpg Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow signature http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieClyde.jpg Bonnie and Clyde death car http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar.jpg Another Bonnie and Clyde death car shot (no pun intended) http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar4.jpg Bonnie and Clyde car again. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar3.jpg An original Colt Thompson donated by our own Gordon Herigstad. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/Thompson3.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/ThompsonNumber.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Wow One more place I need to visit. Thanks for sharing michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 An original Colt magazine that was supposedly used during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I thought a 50 round L drum and a 30 round clip were used. This appears to be a 20 round clip. I don't know if it is authentic. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/StValentinesMag.jpg Submariner Fan, Thanks for the photos! 30 round magazines were not available at the time of the SVDM...they were designed during WWII. An L-drum, and an XX magazine were used during the massacre, and 70 shell casings were found at the scene, as both the drum and magzine were emptied. The L-drum was used in Colt #2347 as the primary weapon, and the XX magazine was used in #7580, probably as a coup-de-grace weapon, based on the fact that shell casings from that weapon were found on top of a chair at the scene, indicating it was probably fired from a vertical orientation. Did you happen to see a 24-barrel, 12-gauge Manville gas gun on display there? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThompsonCrazy Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Very interesting and unique items! Does anyone know from viewing Dillinger's pistols or by the ejection port size if that was a .32 or .380? Just something I've always been facinated with. This is the first time I have even seen it in a close up photo. Usually viewed as a whole display. Thanks, TC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubmarinerFan Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 An original Colt magazine that was supposedly used during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I thought a 50 round L drum and a 30 round clip were used. This appears to be a 20 round clip. I don't know if it is authentic. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/StValentinesMag.jpg Submariner Fan, Thanks for the photos! 30 round magazines were not available at the time of the SVDM...they were designed during WWII. An L-drum, and an XX magazine were used during the massacre, and 70 shell casings were found at the scene, as both the drum and magzine were emptied. The L-drum was used in Colt #2347 as the primary weapon, and the XX magazine was used in #7580, probably as a coup-de-grace weapon, based on the fact that shell casings from that weapon were found on top of a chair at the scene, indicating it was probably fired from a vertical orientation. Did you happen to see a 24-barrel, 12-gauge Manville gas gun on display there? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com David, Thanks for clarifying the magazine history at the SVDM site. That must be the original magazine then. There was something significant about the bullets that were in the magazine too. I can't remember what it said in the museum, but those are the original rounds that were in the magazine when it was captured by the police. I don't recall seeing the gas gun, but there is a lot to look at in the museum. My female friend, while not hurried, couldn't appreciate all the various guns like we can, so I felt that I needed to keep moving as not to hold her up. Plus, I have to admit, there is a magnetic pull that a Thompson has over me. I seem to walk past everything else and just want to stare at any Thompson or respective accessory to it I see, consequently missing out on other gems. Maybe next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 David, Thanks for clarifying the magazine history at the SVDM site. That must be the original magazine then. There was something significant about the bullets that were in the magazine too. I can't remember what it said in the museum, but those are the original rounds that were in the magazine when it was captured by the police. I don't recall seeing the gas gun, but there is a lot to look at in the museum. My female friend, while not hurried, couldn't appreciate all the various guns like we can, so I felt that I needed to keep moving as not to hold her up. Plus, I have to admit, there is a magnetic pull that a Thompson has over me. I seem to walk past everything else and just want to stare at any Thompson or respective accessory to it I see, consequently missing out on other gems. Maybe next time. Submariner Fan, As to being able to specifically link the XX magazine at the museum to the SVDM, I don't think that is possible. Perhaps, however, the magazine is known to have originated from Fred Burke's weapons cache, captured by the Berrien County, Michigan Sheriff's Department. The .45 ACP ammunition used in the SVDM was made by United States Cartridge Co. in Lowell, MA, and is unique in that the lead, 230 grain bullets are each marked with an "S" on them. This ammunition is quite scarce today. Here is a picture of a box of this type of .45 ammo in my collection: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson_Hardware/USCO_Ammo_David_Web.JPG David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Does anyone know the circumstances under which Colt Ser # 2065(the donated example above) was de-activated? N.B: The Colt Model 1903 in 32acp and the Colt Model 1908 in 380acp are externally identical. I'd have to do a hands on to tell the difference as I can't read the caliber marking in the above photo. Jim Edited August 21, 2010 by james m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Does anyone know the circumstances under which Colt Ser # 2065(the donated example above) was de-activated? N.B: The Colt Model 1903 in 32acp and the Colt Model 1908 in 380acp are externally identical. I'd have to do a hands on to tell the difference as I can't read the caliber marking in the above photo. Jim Jim, According to Gordon's book, #2065 was brought into the country in 2001 as a parts kit. It originated from the Government of El Salvador. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Does anyone know the circumstances under which Colt Ser # 2065(the donated example above) was de-activated? N.B: The Colt Model 1903 in 32acp and the Colt Model 1908 in 380acp are externally identical. I'd have to do a hands on to tell the difference as I can't read the caliber marking in the above photo. Jim Jim, According to Gordon's book, #2065 was brought into the country in 2001 as a parts kit. It originated from the Government of El Salvador. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Thanks David: I guess it was permissible to bring in the whole torched receiver back in 2001? I only remember parts kits from that time having the nose of the receiver still attached to the barrel and the rear section with the sight. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubmarinerFan Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Very interesting and unique items! Does anyone know from viewing Dillinger's pistols or by the ejection port size if that was a .32 or .380? Just something I've always been facinated with. This is the first time I have even seen it in a close up photo. Usually viewed as a whole display. Thanks, TC All Interested, I have your answer regarding Dillinger's hamerless Colt pistol. The answer is... http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerFlash.jpg .380!!! Sorry, should have posted the photo with the flash to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Wow, Thanks! Have to get to that one. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimFromFL Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Really nice. Thanks for taking the time to share these images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 I was just there last week. Really good stuff in the museum. I also noticed Gordon's name on the deact TSMG. Too bad the other TSMGs on display were of the Japanese cap gun variety. Wasnt the Manville gas gun used by Chris Walken in 'The Dogs of War'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Iannamico Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 How many Bonnie and Clyde death cars are there? I saw one in a Nevada Casino a few years ago, but it was a different color, more of a gray color. The Casino was a few miles past the CA border on the main highway to LA. Last Saturday a friend and I took a trip to the Crime and Punishment museum in Washington DC. They had a lot of interesting pieces there. Here are a few. Please note, I do not endorse crime or any of the actions associated with the individuals, but these are pieces of history that some forum members here may be interested in. I think that forum members should visit if they are ever in the DC area. It is a good museum, though a bit disturbing with some of the pieces they have, i.e. Ted Bundy's car and Gacy's paintings and paint kit. Thanks! A drawing of a Thompson by George Machine Gun Kelly. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/GeorgeKelly.jpg Dillinger's hamerless Colt pistol he carried on the night of his death. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerPistol.jpg Shell casings fired from one of Dillinger's Thompsons. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerShellCasings.jpg Phone cord used by Dillinger to tie up a bank employee during a robbery. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerWire.jpg Sales literature from Ford Motor Company. The opposite side says, "Will they ever catch Dillinger..." http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/FordSalesLiterature.jpg A piece of Dillinger's hair http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerHair.jpg Dillinger's fake pistol he used to escape from prison. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerFakeGun.jpg An original Colt magazine seized during Dillinger's capture in Arizona. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/DillingerClip.jpg A piece of the garage wall where the St. Valentine's Day Massacre took place. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/Brick.jpg An original Colt magazine that was supposedly used during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I thought a 50 round L drum and a 30 round clip were used. This appears to be a 20 round clip. I don't know if it is authentic. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/StValentinesMag.jpg Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow signature http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieClyde.jpg Bonnie and Clyde death car http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar.jpg Another Bonnie and Clyde death car shot (no pun intended) http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar4.jpg Bonnie and Clyde car again. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/BonnieandClydeCar3.jpg An original Colt Thompson donated by our own Gordon Herigstad. http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/Thompson3.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/popshots_2007/ThompsonNumber.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 For the record: The Bonnie & Clyde "Death car" I saw that was auctioned off by Kruese Auction Company in the early 70s in conjunction with the Auburn,Cord,Duesenberg Festival which is held in Auburn,IN every Fall was either dark grey or black. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Iannamico Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Here is a link to the one I saw in Nevada, the article says there are quite a few fake death cars, and that the one in DC is not the real one, but was used in the Warren Beatty movie "Bonnie and Clyde" http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2894 I'm sure everyone claims the one they have is the real one... For the record: The Bonnie & Clyde "Death car" I saw that was auctioned off by Kruese Auction Company in the early 70s in conjunction with the Auburn,Cord,Duesenberg Festival which is held in Auburn,IN every Fall was either dark grey or black. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman1 Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Sounds like much of that stuff can be suspect anymore. It's a shame some of the original bits of history has blurred into the fake or reproduction display pieces of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reenactor Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 During the time that I was associated with a Texas-based reenactment group, one of whose members owned the sand-colored car for a number of years, it was always represented as the Movie Car, and the word "original" was applied only as it related to the movie. We enjoyed its use in our group, and it participated in a number of reenactments of the ambush on the actual site as part of the annual Bonnie and Clyde festival which Gibsland, LA holds each May. The car spent a few years under new ownership in Louisiana before its trip to the museum in DC. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/reenactor1/Ambush503.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/reenactor1/1942701-R1-E003.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndArmored Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 And in a (sort of) related story, from today's funny pages: http://comics.com/frank&ernest/2010-08-24/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 I forgot to mention that I also saw Chuck Schauer's name on a couple of the displays. It's a good feeling to know that the team is making an attempt to educate the public on our hobby/pasttime/lifestyle. Keep up the good work, guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 (edited) Here is a link to the one I saw in Nevada, the article says there are quite a few fake death cars, and that the one in DC is not the real one, but was used in the Warren Beatty movie "Bonnie and Clyde" http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2894 I'm sure everyone claims the one they have is the real one... For the record: The Bonnie & Clyde "Death car" I saw that was auctioned off by Kruese Auction Company in the early 70s in conjunction with the Auburn,Cord,Duesenberg Festival which is held in Auburn,IN every Fall was either dark grey or black. Jim BTW: The Cadillac on display at the Patton Museum, Ft. Knox, Kentucky, is a replica and not the actual one George Patton was injured in on December 9, 1945. Edited August 24, 2010 by Arthur Fliegenheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffen Und Bier Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 Wasnt the Manville gas gun used by Chris Walken in 'The Dogs of War'? Yes, but they called it something else XM18 or something like that. Made it seem more modern. Off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 Wasnt the Manville gas gun used by Chris Walken in 'The Dogs of War'? Yes, but they called it something else XM18 or something like that. Made it seem more modern. Off the top of my head. The Manville used in the movie was the 25mm version. Its effects were just a bit exaggerated in the film. It was portrayed as an extraordinary grenade launcher, rather than a tear gas gun. The Manvilles have always interested me. I wrote an article about them for SAR a couple of years ago. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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