Not Mine, But It Made Me Cry - Colt Parts Kit $14k

[ron_brock]

It's not mine and no connection to the sale, but is sure makes me sad.

 

Anyway..... enjoy :banghead:

 

From the ad:

These are the parts of the Colt Thompson that Snohomish County Sheriff's Department received from the Feds during Prohibition. I was told that Snohomish, Skagit, and Whatcom counties all received at least one Colt Tommy Gun each to be used for fighting "rum runners" that came through the Puget Sound out of Canada. All parts are original, with the possible exception of the front grip screw. The New York drum and 20 round magazine come with the parts kit but I did not get them from the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office. The bore is very nice with no bulges/rings. The rear sight was carefully removed in a mill with a center drill so there was no damage to the holes. The stock was drilled at one time to accept a sling swivel stud as shown in the pictures. I do not wish to sell the parts individually. $14,000 or best offer. Click on the link for lots of pictures.

http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x429/cascadearmory

 

Link:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=140522

 

- Ron

Edited August 12, 2011 by ron_brock

[Bob]

That gun made us all cry.

He tried to save it but the feds demanded it be cut.

It was a beauty.

[ron_brock]

That gun made us all cry.

He tried to save it but the feds demanded it be cut.

It was a beauty.

 

Bob,

 

Was the serial number documented?

 

Thanks,

- Ron

[colt21a]

You can have somebody machine that from steel and would not cost you $14,000.00

 

Colt barrel and comp $2,000.00 complete wood set.$2,000.00 actuator bolt springs and oiler. no more then $2,000.00 lyman site $500.00, I am at $6,500.00 w/o the complete lower.

 

so somebody is going to tell me the lower minus wood grip.is worth over $6,000.00 today.I think some people in the Thompson collecting world better pull their head out of their arse and rethink the market they are in. has stuff even in the down economy.....still this bad. that somebody might pay $2,000.00 plus for a barrel and comp. { not new mind you} or a 21 actuator with spring and pilot and oiler with Bolt for $2,000.00 plus.

 

{ I remember a time over 20 years ago. when a machine operator guy had around 20 military style bolts for sale. { with machined off markings that you could not tell} and said these crazy Colt guys will eat these up for $250.00 each.and he probably sold every one of them. and some guys own them today and think they are Colt. duh!

 

it is time will all take a breath and rethink price's..

 

Then again the guy that spends $30,000.00 plus for a Colt today wants it to go up and up.. and the guy who spent $5,000.00 for his just laughs and says look what they are paying now. and is chomping at the bit to make that deal.and pay off the ranch.

 

the history is lost on all of it. now its just the dollars and cent's. those with the dollar's, trying to make sense.

 

he should market it as a piece of history.with a few St. Gaudens thrown in.

 

now were in the heck did i put that crate of twenty old Colt barrel's. i need that new Corvette for the summer.

 

Colt 21a

 

 

[Bob]

That gun made us all cry.

He tried to save it but the feds demanded it be cut.

It was a beauty.

 

Bob,

 

Was the serial number documented?

 

Thanks,

- Ron

 

Yes, the serial number is the same as on the lower.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Bob

[First Sergeant]

Anyone else notice the sear appears to be blued when it should be 'nickel', if all original Colt parts?

[CptCurl]

S/N shown on the frame is 6321.

 

I wondered about the blue sear also. I think the rocker looks like it's blued too. Look at the fit of the sear around the lever. The sear cutout is rather squared toward the rear. Not that way on my Colt. I'm far from an expert, but I would want a close look at those internal parts out of the frame.

 

Curl

[mnshooter]

S/N shown on the frame is 6321.

 

I wondered about the blue sear also. I think the rocker looks like it's blued too. Look at the fit of the sear around the lever. The sear cutout is rather squared toward the rear. Not that way on my Colt. I'm far from an expert, but I would want a close look at those internal parts out of the frame.

 

Curl

[/quote

 

Blue sear would seem GI.

The rocker color is difficult to see -the lighting does make the top look blue.

 

The disconnector has a small notch where the lever engagement portion meets the stem that is pushed by the rocker.

The two 21's I checked don't have this notch.

Three GI disconnector's on hand all have the notch.

Edited August 12, 2011 by mnshooter

[John Jr]

I don't follow TSMG pricing anymore, but 14K for a parts kit has to be the stupidest thing I have seen in quite a long time...

[darrylta]

The price the seller wants is a total of "gotta have parts to complete my original Colt gun".

The problem is that no one needs all of the parts at the exorbitant (x3) price you would pay for just that one rare part.

He'd be better off to part the pieces out and wait for the desperate collector buyer.

 

My 2 cents,

Darryl

Edited August 17, 2011 by darrylta

[OldFalGuy]

14K is silly

What model drum is that?

I looked at the pinned stuff and since it mentions "1928 model" in re number of clicks

I don't think its a 1st NY and its not a 3rd NY like mine.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

14K is silly

What model drum is that?

I looked at the pinned stuff and since it mentions "1928 model" in re number of clicks

I don't think its a 1st NY and its not a 3rd NY like mine.

 

 

It's a Stanley Tool 2nd pattern L drum. The first being the "NO." without number type. But it does have the additional stamp: "ALSO FOR U.S. MODEL OF 1928 A1 WIND TO 9 CLICKS" The "ALSO" and the "A1" are unusual.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Arthur,

Drums are not my speciality but notwithstanding the 1928A1 markings, this looks like a First Generation Worcester Pressed Steel Co. (WPS) drum - See the bottom of page 560 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. What am I missing here?

 

Thanks

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Drums are not my speciality but notwithstanding the 1928A1 markings, this looks like a First Generation Worcester Pressed Steel Co. (WPS) drum - See the bottom of page 560 of The Ultimate Thompson Book. What am I missing here?

 

Thanks

 

The confusion stems from Hill's misidentification of the number/types of Stanley Tool Works Co L drums and the number/types of Worcester Pressed Steel Co L drums. The Stanley Drum front cover shown in Hill's book is actually a WPS front cover, what Hill calls the "Third-Generation" WPS L drum. Since John's Machine & Stamp Works Co was the only manufacturer with matching numbers front and back, it isn't a wonder that Hill photographed mismatched covers on an L Drum made by two different entities and then credits WPS with four type L Drums and Stanley Tool with only one type.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Arthur,

Which Hill book are you referring too - The American Legend or The Ultimate Thompson Book? Could you also cite the picture or figure numbers in whatever book you are referring too coupled with your reasoning. This way we can all be looking at the same picture(s). I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Which Hill book are you referring too - The American Legend or The Ultimate Thompson Book? Could you also cite the picture or figure numbers in whatever book you are referring too coupled with your reasoning. This way we can all be looking at the same picture(s). I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

TUTB p.560 top left photo is actually a WPS front cover misidentified as a STWC front cover.

TUTB p.560 bottom left & right photos are actually the 2nd type STWC L drum misidentified as a WPS "First Generation" L Drum.

 

In TAL, Hill was still referring to numbered and "NO" L drums as Colt manufactured L drums.

 

This identification double confusion was addressed back in 2006 in Norm's thread:

 

"Want To Sale- Colt L Drum, 3rd generation L drum"

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/ind...ic=7616&hl=

 

[TD.]

Arthur,

I am going to keep this real simple and only refer to The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB).

 

I now can see the pictures of the drums in TUTB you believe are not identified correctly. Tell me why you are right and Hill is mistaken.

[TD.]

Arthur,

I am interested in the reasoning behind your comments. If you are going to publicly criticize someone's published work, at least tell the Board what you are basing your thoughts on. I am pretty sure Hill owns many of the drums pictured in TUTB; the documentation he has can be weighed by the pound.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

I am interested in the reasoning behind your comments. If you are going to publicly criticize someone's published work, at least tell the Board what you are basing your thoughts on. I am pretty sure Hill owns many of the drums pictured in TUTB; the documentation he has can be weighed by the pound.

 

Did you not read the thread I linked to in my above post? I've "criticized" as you say, published works of Hill, as well as other TSMG authors, when there is justification, for some time on this board. Was it that long ago when Hill was relying on his observations of what he considered rivets and tack welds to identify different generations of John's Machine & Stamp Works Co drums, Stanley Works Co and WPS drums? Having access to bundles of documentation does not guarantee that errors do not occur between the compiling and the printing of words and pictures.

 

I'm sure Hill indeed has lbs' of documentation. When Hill discovered new information regarding Colt era L drums after he published American Legend it persuaded him to jettison his "tacky" features for identification, which he did in TUTB, but he is still wedded to his belief stated back in American Legend that there are four (4) patterns of WPS L drums instead of three (3). The first generation WPS L drum is identical to a Stanley L drum without the "NO." This would make it logical that Stanley made both L drums, unless of course one depends on Hill's photo that shows a WPS face plate on a Stanley L drum.

 

His photo of a Stanley Tool L drum in TUTB has what Hill refers to as a WPS 3nd generation front cover (which is actually a WPS 2nd generation L drum) and a Stanley rear cover. To look at this from a different perspective, why would WPS be using a supposed Stanley front face plate on what Hill calls their third generation L drum? Why wouldn't WPS have used this style front face plate on their original L drum if they just picked up where Stanley left off? Hill says WPS used left over faceplates with the model of 1928 instructions stamped into it.OK, but if they were left over Stanley Tool face plates, they would look identical to what Hill's photo of what he calls a WPS first generation WPS L drum, not the WPS third generation L drum.

 

Stanley made the "NO" L drums without numbers, as well as the no "NO" L drums. The logic of Hill's own sequence of L drum manufactures and their stamping style in the Colt era substantiate this conclusion.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Arthur,

Thanks for your response.

 

Again, would you please insert picture numbers from The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB) to your response so there is no mistake on what picture I or other readers are looking at. As I stated earlier, I am not concerned about anything that was published in American Legend - only TUTB. I see no reason to judge past efforts, only what is now in print.

 

Thanks!

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Thanks for your response.

 

Again, would you please insert picture numbers from The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB) to your response so there is no mistake on what picture I or other readers are looking at. As I stated earlier, I am not concerned about anything that was published in American Legend - only TUTB. I see no reason to judge past efforts, only what is now in print.

 

Thanks!

 

How about scans from TUTB?

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/WPSThirdGenerationLdrumpage562TUTB.jpg

 

Which is identical to this:

 

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/StanleyLdrumpage560TUTB.jpg

[TD.]

The pictures help. If I am not mistaken, you are saying the drum front plate on Picture 873 of TUTB has the identical markings as the drum face plate on Picture 866.

 

I am not so sure I agree with your assessment. I do agree the markings appear similar but these are definitely pictures of two different drums. I believe an in person inspection of both drums would be necessary to uphold your point. Add something new to the story - post a picture of what the face plate for a "NO." Stanley drum is supposed to look like (866) and a picture of what the face plate of the Worcester Pressed Steel drum is supposed to look like (873) for the associated rear face plate (874).

 

 

[mnshooter]

The pictures help. If I am not mistaken, you are saying the drum front plate on Picture 873 of TUTB has the identical markings as the drum face plate on Picture 866.

 

I am not so sure I agree with your assessment. I do agree the markings appear similar but these are definitely pictures of two different drums. I believe an in person inspection of both drums would be necessary to uphold your point. Add something new to the story - post a picture of what the face plate for a "NO." Stanley drum is supposed to look like (866) and a picture of what the face plate of the Worcester Pressed Steel drum is supposed to look like (873) for the associated rear face plate (874).

 

There is considerably more open space to the right of "clicks" in photo 866, in addition to the stamped ribs.

There are differences in the markings in photos 866, 870, 873, and the bottom left photo on P.560(presumably No. 868).

 

I do hope Arthur will elaborate more on this concern.

[TD.]

Arthur,

Showing us what you believe is wrong with a noted researcher and authors work without any thing to back up your position is pretty worthless. At least show us how you envision the correct face plates for the drums in question should appear. You have been saying for years how Hill messed up the drum section. I don't care about American Legend, only TUTB. Show us what is correct.

 

If you would attend an All Thompson Show & Shoot one year I bet you could examine the drums in question in person.

 

mnshooter,

I agree with your observations.

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

Showing us what you believe is wrong with a noted researcher and authors work without any thing to back up your position is pretty worthless. At least show us how you envision the correct face plates for the drums in question should appear. You have been saying for years how Hill messed up the drum section. I don't care about American Legend, only TUTB. Show us what is correct.

 

If you would attend an All Thompson Show & Shoot one year I bet you could examine the drums in question in person.

 

mnshooter,

I agree with your observations.

 

I know how you desire to set the parameters for any Colt TSMG discussion. However, just because you do not wish to discuss Hill's "American Legend" (which is still referred to by many TSMG owners) the fact that I was the only one in the forum challenging Hill's assertions about identifying L drums by "rivets/tack welds," it would appear to be my challenge was of the prudent "worthlessness" type considering Hill jettisoned this identification method in TUTB.

 

As far as ATSS, wouldn't it be more expedient if Hill just logged into the forum and gave his explanation? G.H. and D..R. manage to participate in this forum.

 

Hill says that when WPS took over for Stanley, "New dies were made to change the markings on the rear face plate to completely remove the serial number information." OK. The rear face plate of a Stanley L drum will look just like what Hill calls the WPS "first generation" L drum sans the "NO.". Since WPS did not change the die markings for the front face plate, the Stanley front face plate will look just like this "first generation" WPS L drum. Except it doesn't in TUTB.

 

My contention has been that Stanley made a rear face plate L drum with "NO." and sans "NO." The front face plate would be the one pictured below for both of their drums.

 

 

Stanley "NO" front face plate:

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/StanleyToolNOLdrumfront.jpg

 

 

Stanley "NO" rear face plate.

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/StanleyToolNOLdrumback.jpg