levallois Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 With all due respect to the Tucson PD, you can see the Lebman guns had longer magazines in the old photos of them right after they were confiscated. Now they might only be 10-rounders but they were longer than the stock 5-rounders for sure. So I would have to conclude they were lost. Also, even if the police officer in charge is 60 years old, he could only have been with the Tucson PD since approximately the early to mid-1970s so how does he know they've never been fired? There are too many stories out there about them being fired and how the suppressor sounded. Now if Sheriff Hudson could go back and fire the darn thing and take video of it . . . .then that would end the debate! Of course if he did then everybody would be visiting Tucson PD requesting the same thing. Tucson tourism would go through the roof. Maybe that's the way to spin this so the mayor and all the business owners are on board ? A guy can dream can't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Correct, to my knowledge, there is no verification the Tucson Winchester is FA. I've brought this up about a 1/2 doz times in the forum, I knew a guy, law enforcement type, that was allowed to open up the Winchesters to inspect how they were modified. He told me, but it was Greek to me at the time. This was maybe 15-20 years ago. The info was on I think an old crashed computer now. This could of been John Henwood, very possible. May of been a letter too- This stuff is getting fogger & fogger as the years drift by. This little story is extremely unreliable as to the condition on the guns there but all I got. Sheriff Hudson said they won't fire the Winchesters as parts, accidents etc could destroy the guns, and basically I don't think they care to taken any gamble with the guns and don't have to. Either my feeble mind or how the story was related to me, that they fired the Winchesters, is false, but the Thompsons had been taken out to the range, which ones I have no clue, probably # 5878 ( Peru Thompson )or # 7731 which they also have on display. OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl7422 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 An in-depth look and examination of the Tucson Lebman Winchester would make a great SARS article. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Every January, the Congress Hotel does a Dillinger Days festival, around the time of the historic arrest, 25th or so. Usually the Tucson Police put the Winchesters out for public display. This might be a good time for a Winchester 07 expert to do a close examination of the historic guns and a cleaning. Add to the event ? Free cleaning and check up for the Tucson PD. Check to see if the sear is filed or ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levallois Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Who is the preeminent 1907 expert now that John Henwood is gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Sometimes with things like this you have to educate yourself, become the expert in the mirror- I've had to do this on a couple rare cars. Winchester 1907 expert, ??? Not I, just the history on them involved with the badguys. I've only cleaned mine. Henwood's book has a complete breakdown of the guard assembly, that is referenced by: Firearms Assembly 3. The NRA Guide to Rifles & Shotguns. Also other aspects of the rifle. Devotes a full chapter on operation,maintenance of the 07. Also saying this is one of the simplest rifles ever designed. Complete description on how to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Just a thought, maybe Tom in Utah ? If I had a parts gun, I'd probably attempt to strip it down following John Henwood's book on doing so. There are some issues like reinstalling the hammer spring. He even says it helps to swear a lot when doing this, also start early so you won't miss dinner. Not sure my arthritic thumbs could do that anyway. Time is in my favor tho on these projects. OCM Edited October 14, 2015 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Think we will have a Winchester 1907 gunsmith/expert , California John " Lebman" that was at the Big Sandy shoot this past weekend, coming up this winter. He is the one that made the Baby Face Nelson/Dillinger Colt 1911 mini. Is working on a couple 07s. Good source for future question about it- ( hopefully) Till then- OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levallois Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Is California John Lebman doing something similar to what Tom Wilkinson does in duplicating a Lebman 1907 in semi-auto or is it something else like full auto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Not that I know of, I think mainly working on them, opening them up, cleaning etc., a hobbyist not a Gmith store. No full auto- Not much to them but a bitch ( springs) to work on without the correct tools. Henwood indicates that it's best if you don't have to open them up, unless you have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) CJL has or is making specific tools to break the 07s down. He's the one that made the Baby Face Nelson replica at Big Sandy that my friends saw. ( see the above posts & posts on Big Sandy) He also has some nice 07s and I guess one from Tom W.Big Sandy is in the Prescott, AZ area, not a hell of a long way from Tucson.Possibly there could be a connection here and a visit from him to the Lebman 07s. I know someone was allowed to do this in the past, maybe time for a cleaning again and some good photos and a possible article in SAR like someone mentioned. Love to see inside one from a guy that knows them.Tom W., California John Lebman or that gunsmith type. Be great to finally have someone get into them and doc the findings before they fade to rust. Maybe they aren't FA ? That would stop the presses. Edited October 29, 2015 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted November 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) California John Lebman got me fired up on the Lebman Winchesters and I decided to rework the front grip on my Winchester 07 a bit. I had never quite finished it. So I decided to rework it a bit, to "clone" the one recovered in Tucson by the Dillinger gang. Then I got carried away, sanded it down, took out the milling stuff on it and restained it to match the butt stock best I could. Also nubbed off the end as Lebman seemed to do on most of his work.Pictured ( third rifle from the left ) is the one recovered from the JD gang the day before and my new weekend project remodel. Fun hobby OCM Edited November 16, 2015 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Sandy,Nice work.Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Yes sir, thank you, a labor of love, from a student of History.Imagine making a beauty like this, in a basement under a saddle shop in San Antonio , Texas in Full Auto ! Wonder what Dillinger paid him. 9 days from today ( 11/17/2015 ) in 1933, H.S. Lebman sat down to a Thanksgiving dinner with Lester " Baby Face Nelson " Gillis and his wife, at his home in San Antonio. OCM More to come- Edited November 18, 2015 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted November 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) Experimenting on duplicating a Colt 21 front grip for a possible new project. Just whittling away in the mountains. Edited February 7, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelsik Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 I am so excited to read this story line! This week, I was cleaning a very old saddle that was a gift. This is an amazing saddle in wonderful shape. I thought that I would look up the saddle. Being from Chicago's south side, you can imagine how excited I was see learn about the history of this old saddle. I feel like it's the most interesting thing in the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) That's great news, Kelsik- I also had one of his saddles. It was marked( branded) on the back ( this is close) HS Lebman Saddle Co, 101 Flores San Antonio, Tx.It was a smaller saddle we tried to fit it on one of my wife's horses, but a bit small.Nice little treasure, good for you. Besides your saddle, imagine what those Lebman hands made. OCM Edited February 7, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Iannamico Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Off Topic, but do you have info on Rick Cartlidge? He broke contact and vanished from all activities a few years back and many of us wondered what happened to him.Your post is the first I have seen about Rick in a long time. the late Rick Cartlidge was planning a book on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Rick passed away some time ago. It's been awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Has someone seen the "full-auto" Colt ".38 Automatic" seized from Purple Gang member Louis Fleisher in 1938? I have seen a photo (in Kavieff's DETROIT'S INFAMOUS PURPLE GANG) that shows a Colt Government/Super .38 Auto-style pistol with a Monarch grip/magazine extension. The text claims it fires full-auto, although the Monarch conversion really just changed the capacity. Another book (Newton's MR MOB) claims that actually three full-auto pistols were seized. The photo in the first source also shows two Luger P08 and LP08 pistols with TM08 drum magazines, which could be the guns alluded to. Would someone know more? Were these actually full-auto, or just high-capacity? Cheers HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Hans-No clue here- ? Never heard of a Monarch extension or anything related to.Sorry I couldn't help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Hans-No clue here- ? Never heard of a Monarch extension or anything related to.Sorry I couldn't help... The Monarch Arms and Mfg Co of Los Angeles produced both shoulder stocks for the big (Government and Super 38) and small (Woodman) Colts and an extended magazine for the big pistols. If you examine the famous FBI display, you'll see that the Lebman conversion has two large screws on the left grip. That is an aluminium Monarch grip panel that allows screwing the Monarch "Steady Fire" stock on. Obviously the stock is not installed, and perhaps never has been. Cheers HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) Interesting, had never heard of the Monarch Arms Company. I've heard the Department of the Navy " borrowed" a Lebman Colt mini, to possibly develop a weapon of their own. Wonder if they did the shoulder stock conversion ?You can see the mounting screws on many of the weapons, I guess, erroneously, I've always assumed this was the case on the big round holes in the grip.Like to find out more about the MAC .Any info ? Dates etc.Also, like to find out which Lebman Colt mini that's on display- Maybe an email to Larry Wack...It's not the Lincoln Court one or the Nelson early model. OCM Edited February 9, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANS Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Interesting, had never heard of the Monarch Arms Company. I've heard the Department of the Navy " borrowed" a Lebman Colt mini, to possibly develop a weapon of their own. Wonder if they did the shoulder stock conversion ?You can see the mounting screws on many of the weapons, I guess, erroneously, I've always assumed this was the case on the big round holes in the grip.Like to find out more about the MAC .Any info ? Dates etc.Also, like to find out which Lebman Colt mini that's on display- Maybe an email to Larry Wack...It's not the Lincoln Court one or the Nelson early model. Enclosed is an example of the mounting holes that were installed in two of the Dillinger captured weapons. Fairly large.One being the 380 he had on him when killed. OCM Supposedly the Monarch Arms and Mfg Co was founded by an LAPD officer. They seem to have started in the 1920s with the "Rifle-ette", a stock for the Woodman, and then brought out the "Steady Fire Riot and Anti-Bandit Multi-Shot Gun", which was the modificiation of the big Colts -- grip panel with counterholes for the screws on the stock, extended magazine (18 or 22 depending on calibre) with grip moulded on for the off hand. If you google "Monarch Rifle-ette" you'll find a youtube video of the entire setup.It seems that Lebman incorporated at least some parts from Monarch, ie, the grip panels and possibly the magazine (without the grip). About the Lebman conversions, I always thought there were only three -- the Super 38 given by Nelson to Dillinger and found in St Paul, the Government 45 used by Nelson at Little Bohemia (what happened to it?), and the M1911 for Van Meter they found on Lebman's bench. Am I missing one? What are their serials?Who did the full-auto Government 45 of Pretty Boy Floyd? Cheers HANS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) California John Lebman sent this to me this morning with a write up. He also indicated may have read where Lebman and this company had some connections. Wouldn't surprise me.I don't know where the guns are, other then with the FBI collection. We know Lebman slipped quite a few FA Winchesters 07s, out to the outlaws. not necessarily converted with the new front end. There are two on the old FBI display picture ( the vertical one) with the Colt mini, the converted one had the numbers removed.Rick Cartlidge told me Lebman made is own front grips, the early Nelson one appears that way, the seclect fire Dillinger one looks almost Colt.Van Meter's Colt mini was sitting at Lebman's shop when arrested, is it there locally in Texas ???From Helmer, apparently Floyd had a FA Winchester 07 as did Nelson at the Barrington battle. Bill said the FBI files indicate a lot of these weapons went missing.Wish I could answer that-The Colt mini on display has the 7 slot compensator,Interesting stuff you've found, I have no doubt Lebman could or would of installed this Monarch device. I have some more stuff from CJL I'll post on another posting here, need to remove some old photos for room... A start- Thanks for this Hans, also CJL. Edited February 9, 2016 by OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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