Texas Military Forces Museum In Austin & Thompson Debate For Board

[dalbert]

All,

 

Today, during my family trip home to Austin for Thanksgiving, my longtime buddy Peter ("Trog" on this board) and I went to Camp Mabry to revisit the Texas Military Forces Museum. My last visit to the museum was about 7 years ago, and much has changed since then. While I did not take many photos, and those I took were with an iPhone, I thought board members here might enjoy some background on this excellent museum that graces some prime real estate at Camp Mabry in West Austin. Camp Mabry is the headquarters of the Texas National Guard, and has been in existence since 1892.

 

The museum has a nice collection of tanks and military vehicles that are displayed outside, with the prime, vintage examples housed inside the museum. It covers soldiers and wars extending back to the days of the Alamo, and includes an emphasis on the recent/current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The main focus is the history of the 36th Infantry Division - Texas Army National Guard.

 

Here is a link to the Texas Military Forces Museum website:

 

http://texasmilitaryforcesmuseum.org/

 

My recollection while at the museum was that more small arms were displayed previously. We noticed that some construction of new exhibits was ongoing, and inquired about where certain small arms were located that we had viewed previously. A docent indicated that many small arms were locked up in “the vault.” We inquired what it took to see “the vault,” and were told that it took “a lot” to get in there.

 

I only saw one Thompson on display, which is included in the photos below. It was a pretty standard M1 Thompson. However, the caption was interesting and I believe worthy of discussion here. It notes that the TSMG was “not a standard infantry weapon.” The caption further indicated that only 90 Thompsons were issued to a division of 13,500 men. I do not recall hearing this before, and thought it would be a good subject for debate on this board. I’m interested in any thoughts members here may have on the subject.

 

So, back to the vault... I had questions about what Thompsons the museum had in inventory, and soon we were introduced to the Assistant Director of the Museum. She was very nice, and let us review the small arms inventory lists. I was hoping maybe they had a Colt we didn’t know about, but it turned out they did not. We spoke to her at length, and got to almost closing time, at which point she told us she had 10 minutes left, and did we want to see “the vault?” Yes…yes, we do want to see the vault!

 

The vault is cool. It has the kind of space saving, rolling shelves that are found in some libraries, however they were made to hold firearms. We got a quick look at one section of it, and saw that they had 5 M1 Thompsons, 3 Reisings, several MP-40’s and Grease Guns, as well as AK’s, Springfields, and Garands. They also had a section of blank adapted firearms used for Camp Mabry reenactments that are held regularly. We saw one item that looked like a Colt R75, but we think it might be a Polish BAR, due to the crest we observed at the top of the receiver. Anyway, our time in the vault was short, but very fun. I didn’t take any photos inside the vault, unfortunately. I’m not sure if she would have let me…

 

So, it was a fun time we had at the Texas Military Forces Museum, and I also got a lead on another collection that exists locally that is not fully displayed. I have already made an inquiry as to their inventory, in case they have anything of interest.

 

Here are photos of the M1 Thompson, and the caption card that is the subject of debate …

 

 

Here are some general interest photos…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your thoughts?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[reconbob]

I think I recently read that only 3000 men - perhaps even less - out of a division were

front line troops. The rest were clerks, cooks, MP's, mechanics, drivers, etc. etc. So lets

say 3000, and lets roughly say thats 12 companies of approx 250 men. In WW2 each

company would have a headquarters section, a heavy weapons (mortars and MG's) section

and 3 rifle platoons. 90 divided by 12 is 7 or 8 Thompsons per company which would be

enough for the officers and top sargeants. Of course once the division was in battle and

on the move all bets are off and soldiers probably picked up and kept a Thompson (if they

wanted one) from casualties. So that number makes sense to me.

 

Bob

[Z3BigDaddy]

Ok so what is the difference between cyclic rate of fire and actual rate of fire?

[Mk VII]

Theoretical with infinite capacity magazine v. practical rate without just spraying them over the landscape, I guess.

[emmagee1917]

Correct. Cyclic is how fast the gun works. At 600 RPM , it would fire 10 rounds every second. Many times the listed speed and actual speed vary greatly.

Actual rate is what a person would expend in a target rich enviroment by allowing for aiming , burst control , mag changes , etc. Often times this is listed as various figures over time as bbl heat begins to come into play . Ie , 60-80 in a min. , but only maybe 40 rds a min. over 10min and 20-30 a min for longer times .

Chris

[thomas.hondo]

Not sure about the other branches but In the Army, "actual rate of fire" officially does not exist. Each. Wpn system(5.56m thru 25mm) has it's own rate of fire( ROF): "Cyclic" ,"Rapid" and "Sustained. "Cyclic" is as mentioned above - pull the trigger and hold - measured by the minute. "Rapid" differs by wpn system but is usually 40-50% of whatever the cylic ROF is factoring in barrell changes / stoppages/ reloading. Sustained is usually 20-30% of whatever cyclic is preventing the wpn from overheating/less-frequent barrell changes.

Not sure about the M4 but for some reason I still remember off the top of my head the M60's ROF: 550 cyclic, 200 rapid and 100 sustained.

Tom