On The Trail Of Dillinger's Buick Used In Racine, Wis. Bank Job

[ghostsoldier]

This is getting more interesting all the time, Sandy!

 

It's funny how JD's gang/hangers-on thought the gentry there to be "stuffy"...no doubts, the rich-types were secure of their places in history, by the very notion of their lineage and gentility. It's ironic how the son of a grocer ends up stamping the pages of history with his idelible image, whilst the "stuffy" ones faded away, with no noticeable notoriety.

 

As far as the Buick goes...who knows who ended up with it; mayhaps it still exists, and the owner has no clue to it's identity or provenance in history....

Rob

Edited February 7, 2013 by ghostsoldier

[arch stanton]

Update on the Dillinger Racine robbery car:

I talked with one of the Dillinger family members about this subject. ( you have to read the posts above to catch up ) .

Dillinger WAS over in the Lake Geneva area, staying at one of the hotels, probably the Como Inn. His gang member Harry Pierpont also with his girlfriend Mary Kinder. This information came from an interview with Mary Kinder many years ago. She related there were a lot of rich snobby-type people in the area. Lake Geneva has a lot of wealthy families living there in statley mansions.

The gang at the time of the Racine bank robbery were living in Milwaukee, which is like only 50 miles away, Chicago is 70 miles away, Racine about 45 miles away.

The Lake Geneva area was called a " Safe Haven " for the likes of Bugs Moran, Baby Face Nelson, Dillinger and in some respect Capone's group.

We are in the process of tracking down a Thompson from all of this, that's still located with the local law enforcement.

With all this coming together and the picture of the same model car the gang used in Racine, 1933 Buick 90, AND knowing Harry Pierpont was a Buick man, we are getting real close on the Buick pictured in the Museum is the Dillinger gang's car.

Next effort would be finding the car if it still exists. I have my doubts as I have owned two of the only know 1933 Buick 90s left. I still own one. If there was another, I probably would of known about it from freatues on me and my 90s in Buick magazines.

Maybe not ?

 

 

Are you talking about the Thompson that is in the Racine PD with Dillingers name carved in it?

 

By the way I live in Racine

 

Joe

[OCM]

Update on the Dillinger Racine robbery car:

I talked with one of the Dillinger family members about this subject. ( you have to read the posts above to catch up ) .

Dillinger WAS over in the Lake Geneva area, staying at one of the hotels, probably the Como Inn. His gang member Harry Pierpont also with his girlfriend Mary Kinder. This information came from an interview with Mary Kinder many years ago. She related there were a lot of rich snobby-type people in the area. Lake Geneva has a lot of wealthy families living there in statley mansions.

The gang at the time of the Racine bank robbery were living in Milwaukee, which is like only 50 miles away, Chicago is 70 miles away, Racine about 45 miles away.

The Lake Geneva area was called a " Safe Haven " for the likes of Bugs Moran, Baby Face Nelson, Dillinger and in some respect Capone's group.

We are in the process of tracking down a Thompson from all of this, that's still located with the local law enforcement.

With all this coming together and the picture of the same model car the gang used in Racine, 1933 Buick 90, AND knowing Harry Pierpont was a Buick man, we are getting real close on the Buick pictured in the Museum is the Dillinger gang's car.

Next effort would be finding the car if it still exists. I have my doubts as I have owned two of the only know 1933 Buick 90s left. I still own one. If there was another, I probably would of known about it from freatues on me and my 90s in Buick magazines.

Maybe not ?

 

 

Are you talking about the Thompson that is in the Racine PD with Dillingers name carved in it?

 

By the way I live in Racine

 

Joe

 

Joe-

No not that one, this would be another one from the Roger Touhy gang in 1926 arrest in Elkhorn.

But again, today got some more tidbits, the Milwaukee Journal had a blurb, Nov 22, 1933, the day after the robbery, that the Indiana State Police that had been tracking Dillinger, said he was believed to be back in the Lake Geneva/Lake Como area or heading that way after releasing the hostages.

Also said they had been watching the gang, and they had been in the same area prior.

My fellow researchers, have been to Racine and seen the gun- I knew one of the hostages and she had taken photos of the display and sent to me, years ago- This forum has provided valuable info on the 28 Navy that the gang picked up. ( geez- Savage parts inside now )

Any information a local can provide, is ultimately appreciated. This is a constant research project. Just trying to get the history straight.

IMHO, the sig on the stock is bunko. The gun didn't have the butt stock on it when stolen-

 

Sandy

[Mike Hammer]

Sandy: The stock that John engraved was not necessarily the stock that was originally on the Thompson. However the fact he was given a Colt Thompson stock (or the original stock that belonged to the gun to engrave and later attached to the gun he used in the Racine robbery,) is I believe undisputed fact. When I was in Racine and inspecting the gun, I took close up pictures of the engraving, (you can see a picture I posted by doing a search on this site). I then compared the engraving to known documents Dillinger signed. I am convinced this engraving is his handywork. As a historical handwritting/autograph expert of 30 years, I have noticed that there are subtlle nuances in his signature that no forgerer of the time would have taken the care or known the expertise to notice and recreate. No, this was indeed done by him. He probably signed it in pencil first and then was allowed to carve it out with a pen knife.

 

Mike Hammer

[OCM]

Hi Mike-

The 28N was brought to the robbery without the butt stock. Charles Makley picked it up and finally recovered from the gang in Tucson. We all know this, common knowledge. The one on the Thompson now, is not the original to the gun, I don't know if it's a Colt or not, that could be an issue too. The internals have been replaced by WWII now. The gun has been inspected by a police officer who is familiar with Thompsons, some time ago. Not Me. This is where it was noted that the internals were replaced and the stock not original to the 28N. ( number check- I don't know ?)

The only time Dillinger could of signed the stock was Sunday afternoon on the 28th, when Chief Lutter and others met with him for 3 hours in the Prima County Jail. If in fact he did, it would of been a pencil signing over oak wood, on a butt stock the Wisconsin group would of had, no time for carving . As you have noticed it appears the sig was almost wood burned into the oak, like a wood burning tool and high- lighted in black. I've never run across a statement that John signed a Thompson butt stock while in jail in Tucson, or anywhere else. However it is stated that Dillinger got along very well with Chief Lutter ( Racine) and the others from Wisconsin, even to the point of joking about things. So signing a Thompson stock ? Very possible. He was signing autographs to locals that were briefly allowed to visit the gang locked up. Can you believe that. He gave a lady I know his diamond stick pin that is pictured on him. I tried to purchase it, no luck.

I'm certainly not a handwriting expert, not even close, but have seen many forgeries or items claiming to be signed by Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde and others. One such forgeries cost a auction house $50,000.00.

I have items signed by John Dillinger while in prison, and owned a poem signed by Bonnie Parker. Have used these for comparison thru the years, only with stuff I was personally interested in.

 

Bunko was to strong a word I used, my thoughts are the sig was "inhanced" by someone later on , after JD would of signed it, which makes it " Bunko"

Be like restoring a known Dillinger Thompson- double bunko !

 

That's my feeling on this, but I wasn't there. ( that always lets me off the hook in case someone brings a time machine to the party )

 

Sandy

Edited February 11, 2013 by OCM

[Mike Hammer]

Yes, the only time he could have signed it would have been in Tucson. And I do agree, we can't truly know without a shadow of a doubt that even if he penned his name on the stock, was he the one who did the carving over his script. Yea, I would love that time machine myself, it would come in handy now and then. This is always a contentious issue in the autograph world, If you personally didn't see it being signed you should always beware, especially if you are the one interested in purchasing it. But look at the "Bunko" as you put it with the supposed "Bonnie's pistol" recently auctioned. They bought the story, not the gun. Here's a picture I took of the engraved Dillinger stock on the Racine Thompson for those of you not familliar with it.

 

Mike Hammer

[OCM]

Marie Barrow, Clyde's sister, told me, " half the State of Texas claims to be my kin " I always liked that.

 

There are family letters out there, with John's signature of course, but are simply signed, Johnnie. He wouldn't of course write a letter to his mother and sign it John H. Dillinger ( some from prison tho). I've even seen letters of his, where his name has been cut out and sold, unfortunately, by the family long ago.

 

As a professional handwritting expert, you'll appreciate this, and I'll add this is as good as it gets-

 

I have a copy of a document from the Indiana Reformatory, Department of School of Letters, dated Sept 19, 1924. It's a form used by the Pendleton reformatory to admit someone.

 

It has, in Dillinger's own handwriting, the following; " x This is a specimen of my penmanship on entering the Indiana Reformatory "

it is signed x John Herbert Dillinger

 

He was younger then and as you know the signatures change over the years, but I've always used this as a personal guide.

 

Let me correct myself too, above I said I had a poem signed by Bonnie Parker, that is inncorrect, it's a poem handwritten by Bonnie but not signed by her, but a note from her sister, Billie Jean Moon that says this is Bonnie's handwritting. Did have items from Clyde signed by him that came from the Barrow family. Not an autograph collector just came to me by defaut.

 

Ok,

 

Sandy

Edited March 10, 2013 by OCM