Scott Smith Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Long time member, but first post. This has been quite a long road to acquire a gun that I first shot 23 years ago. Wow - what a process. First, some background. It's a 1928A1 TSMG that was manufactured by Savage during WWII. The gun was owned by my good friend Mike Clayton in Southern Indiana, a former Class 3 Firearms Dealer. I first shot this gun back in 1991 when some friends of mine came up from Texas to visit me in Indiana and we all went to a local range and met Mike. I liked the gun a lot, and subsequently asked Mike to give me first chance to buy it if he ever decided to sell it. In 2003 Mike called me and let me know that he had decided to let it go, and I fired a check off to him to pay for it before he could change his mind - only to subsequently discover that in the early 2000's the Anti-gun AG of NC had started advising the sheriff's to not sign off on Form 4 transfer requests. This meant that I could not legally take possession of it, even though I owned it. I left it with the Mike. 9 years went by until more gun-friendly politicians were elected in NC, said pol's passed new legislation clearly stating that MG ownership by private citizens in NC was legal. In case the local CLEO would not sign off, the new laws also made it clear that trust ownership was legal in NC. During this long waiting period, I almost sold it, but ultimately decided to hold on to it in the hopes of one day finally being able to take possession of it myself. Waited another year for the BATFE to review the new NC legislation and publicly acknowledge the new laws. THEN almost another year until all of the paperwork is drafted, reviewed, and approved. Almost 11 years after purchase I was able to have the gun transferred from Mike to a local Class 3 FFL dealer, and a few months later to me. ATF is working 7 days a week to help clear out their backlog, and it was approved yesterday. Brought it home last night. Sweet! It's a nice package. Matching SN's, FBI case, two 50 rd drums, two 100 rd drums, and 20+ stick mags. It's a shooter - not a safe queen. One question that I have not been able to find in the archives; my local dealer met me at a range a couple of months ago, and I discovered that occasionally it will have some misfires, typically showing a light strike on the primer. Some ammo works fine (100%), other ammo does not - even new ammo. A few thousand rounds were run through the gun that day, with some brands working great and others problematic. All were 230 grn roundnose FMJ. I have given the gun a routine cleaning, but am not sure if there are certain components that I should pay more attention to cleaning and oiling. Any advice? Thanks. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Congratulations. Your persistence is to be commended. As to the firing problem, there are many things that could cause it. I had a similar problem with my Savage that seemed to be ammo related so I stayed with the one that worked. S&B was fine but Fiocchi was awful. Some suggested hard primers were the problem but I believe it was related to case length. For the last 14 years I've used Wolf steel case with great success. Enjoy your "new" gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Very nice! Looks highly original indeed, including the finish. As to the light striking problem, I'd advise trying the simple fixes first, like replacing the recoil spring with new or NOS. Also consider that commercially available 230 gr. FMJ ammo is loaded by different manufacturers to different standards, even though all generally comply with SAAMI recommendations. When faced with the same problem with my WWII Savage made '28A1, before getting too concerned, I tried a can of original WWII USGI ball ammo. The gun functioned perfectly, so I left everything else well enough alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUTTERRATT Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Very nice! Looks highly original indeed, including the finish. As to the light striking problem, I'd advise trying the simple fixes first, like replacing the recoil spring with new or NOS. +1 I would start with the recoil spring first and go from there... Edited May 11, 2014 by GUTTERRATT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Thanks all for the feedback. I made the following discovery; all ammo that I have tried shoots just fine from the 50 rd drums. However, when shooting stick mags the gun is more particular. All of my reloads shoot well in all of the stick mags. Wolf steel cased ammo also shoots well in any of the stick mags. New Remington 230GR FMJ will have sporadic fail to fire in the stick mags, as will American Eagle; Winchester white box in general shoots dependably. So the question is what would cause certain brands of ammo to not fire from any stick mag, but other brands will shoot ok (and all brands will shoot ok from a drum)? Thx. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUTTERRATT Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Now days Remington/UMC make some pretty cheap ammo, Their 9mm wont even run my Mac. Most of the stuff I get from them is very under powered... Edited May 11, 2014 by GUTTERRATT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Scott, Pay close attention whether the failures occur when feeding from the right or left side of the stick mags. With the drum, the cartridges are pushed straight into the chamber. With the stick mags the cartridges have to snap either right or snap left to align with the chamber. So, failures can be the result of bolt face recess, cartridge rim diameter, extractor thickness. You have just made the point that a good drum is more reliable with a wide range of ammo than the stick mags. Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Remington / UMC bulk ammo is very underpowered sometimes. I tried it in a MAC, it actually made the MAC run slow. in your shoes I would assemble the gun without the recoil spring and see if the bolt slides smoothly back and forth without binding. and I would replace the recoil spring with a new spring then try some primo grade ammo and try some different magazines Edited May 12, 2014 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Jim, thanks for the suggestion re tracking which side of the mag stacks that the jam occurs on. I would not have thought of that. Buzz, I am puzzled by your suggestions. If new Winchester and Federal American Eagle ammo is not considered "primo", what is? In general I don't understand why a weak recoil spring would cycle properly with a drum mag and not a stick mag. My apologies if I sound contrary, that's not my intent. Just trying to understand the " why" behind the root cause of the problem. Thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Sergeant Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Congrats on the gun and being so persistant. A new spring, as others have suggested, is an easy, inexpensive and hopefully easy fix. Many many years ago I got my first Thompson out from a safe where it had sat for over 15 yrs.and long before I found this forum. I took it to my departments range and had similar malfunctions. I tried my once very reliable reloads, department range ammo and enentually "primo" ammo we had on hand. I had mixed results with feeding and light primmer strikes. A NOS recoil spring fixed all of my problems and she ran 100% with all ammo; even UMC. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUTTERRATT Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Jim, thanks for the suggestion re tracking which side of the mag stacks that the jam occurs on. I would not have thought of that. Buzz, I am puzzled by your suggestions. If new Winchester and Federal American Eagle ammo is not considered "primo", what is? In general I don't understand why a weak recoil spring would cycle properly with a drum mag and not a stick mag. My apologies if I sound contrary, that's not my intent. Just trying to understand the " why" behind the root cause of the problem. Thanks all.Not enough force pushing the bolt forward or friction can cause a light primer strike, That was your complaint correct. I don't see where Buzz said Winchester and Federal were not considered good ammo although I have gotten a couple squibs before on Winchester White Box. Congrats on your Tommy... Edited May 12, 2014 by GUTTERRATT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) If your bolt is dragging a little, or your recoil spring is a little limp, or your ammo is not really cycling the bolt with a lot of energy, then you might wind up with a gun that runs poorly. It could be that the bolt has just enough energy to work with drums but stick mags require just a bit more than what's provided. You can take guesses as to what is wrong with the gun if you like, but trial-and-error is the only practical method to isolate and fix the problem. Recoil springs will lose power over time, anyone who says different is talking through his hat. Compressing a coil spring for decades, heating it and violently working it will all make it take a "set", loose 15% or more of force. Mechanical engineers have determined this from testing. Bulk ammo is always different from top of the line ammo. Like Winchester Super X and Winchester white box ammo. The super X is made in the USA and last I heard the WWB ammo is made by a subcontractor in Croatia. Some guns will eat WWB like candy, but some guys say their autoloaders don't like it. It is what it is, it's not bad ammo but it's not "primo". But regardless, your purpose here is to do a test, and ammo is one variable you can adjust. Edited May 13, 2014 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 I see, said the blind man.... Buzz, GR, 1ssgt, many thanks for the additional insight as well as your patience. I will order a spring today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Scott. I hate to rely on my memory, which gets worse as I get older, but as I recall my failures to feed took place when the jammed cartridge fed off the left side of the mag. The bolt remained partially open. I have several extra bolts and I got all of them out and set them upright on a table. I hooked a cartridge rim under the extractor and with my thumb tried to snap the cartridge in place. I discovered it was easy with some bolts and very difficult with others. I did this with all the popular brands. Some makes worked easy with all 6 bolt and some other makes didn't work well in all bolts. So, naturally I put one of the good bolts in the gun. Another thing to inspect is the extractor groove in the receiver just in front of the barrel. My gun had a burr in the groove caused by the extractor. I polished the burr and frequently check the groove for carbon buildup. The suggestion of stronger springs may treat the symptoms without solving the problem. The M3 US SMG has a weak recoil spring and a very slow bolt speed but seldom ever fails because everything feeds smoothly. Best of luck. Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph12297 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Great package Scott!!!Congrats.... I am moving to NC in a few weeks!!. I am looking for a class 3 dealer as I have a 21/28 Navy that just got to my dealer in NH. If you can recommend someone, send me a PM if you possibly can. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 Scott,That is a very nice package and a great story to go along with it. Congratulations. Is the serial number on your Savage Thompson in the 550,000 serial number range. It appears to be S-550xxx (I cannot read the last three digits). If so, that is a very late Savage Thompson. I don't think I have seen one with that high a serial number before. Perhaps others can chime in. I have spent a lot of time looking at the early Savage Thompson's and have never paid that much attention to the late Savage guns - until now. I noticed your buffer pilot sticks pretty far out the rear of the receiver. This may be an indication of a very worn buffer disk. If you are using one of the GI red or gray disks, you should think about changing to one of the new polymer disks. Board member PK. makes the best disk I have seen or used. And his price is very reasonable (last I heard was about 10 bucks). I don't know if a worn disk could be a part of your problem but it would be good protection for the rear of your Savage receiver to change it out. Again, congratulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcar Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 +1 on the PK buffer disk and new recoil spring, thousands of rounds on mine and 0 failures. Neat story on you going the distance, awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Hi all. Many thanks again for the wisdom and advice that is being shared. I have ordered a Wolf recoil spring, and also some of the Thompson manual, etc from David Albert. Can anybody advise me as to how I can contact member PK. re the buffer disk? I am not able to send him a P.M. TD, the SN is 550994. I will take some higher resolution photo's of the gun and post them soon. Joseph, I know a great Class 3 dealer, Shawn Conver of Carolina Smoke and Guns, who is based in Durham. I will send you a PM with his contact info. What part of the state will you be moving to? I am in the Raleigh area. Jim, I will do some experimenting to find out if there is a consistency in feed problems before I swap the spring. Buzz, et al, I will also gather up the next batch of misfired rounds and take some photo's showing the back side of the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 PK.'s e-mail address: p-k@q.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob241 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Scott. On July 7,2013 Reconbob, a expert on thompsons stated he found many extractors had lost their flex from setting in the bolt for many years, causing misfires.You can tell if this is your problem by looking at a cartridge case to see if the extractor has left a imprint of itself on the rim of the case. He also stated that after changing out the extractor, weapon fired without any more problems, He also advised that a Wolf spring will overcome a extractor that has lost its flex, but better fix the problem by replacing the extractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Scott. On July 7,2013 Reconbob, a expert on thompsons stated he found many extractors had lost their flex from setting in the bolt for many years, causing misfires.You can tell if this is your problem by looking at a cartridge case to see if the extractor has left a imprint of itself on the rim of the case. He also stated that after changing out the extractor, weapon fired without any more problems, He also advised that a Wolf spring will overcome a extractor that has lost its flex, but better fix the problem by replacing the extractor.Bob, that's good insight; thanks for sharing. I'll be sure to check for that when I track the problem cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted May 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 PK.'s e-mail address: p-k@q.com Thank you; I've sent him an e-mail enquiring about the disks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph12297 Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 Hi Scott Moving to Apex, right near you!!!Checking my PM now.Thanks Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 Well, I'll toss another gallon on the fire......I had what sounds to be the exact same problem. My '28 Bridgeport would fire many ammos, didn't like Fiocci, ran slow on Remington (incidentally, I have two other open bolt guns that both runaway on Remington 9mm so beware!).....some handloads worked okay, others, well, clunk!Bolt was stuck forward and I had to tap the actuator against a post lightly to get it to pop loose. I Pulled the round out and observed a llight dent in the primer. So, I put in a new spring, new bolt, extractor, tried a variety of sticks and drums....no matter what, every once in awhile, clunk! More often than not it ran okay, but it kicked me out of the pepper popper competition at a shoot at Tracy's in Ohio several years ago. I was doing great but the gun was not....finally after two FTFs in a row, I was out. So after trying all the other possibilities, I finally got around to really checking one of the misfires and found.....what appeared to be a crimped bullet in the cartridge. Really....it looked like someone had done a nice heavy taper crimp on that round. looked at the others in the box and they were all uncrimped. Problem is, these .45 cartridges headspace on the front rim....and when the chamber gets a bit too much wear, instead of being straight cut at the front it looked kinda like it was a tiny bit tapered and I bet if I cerrocast it I'd find it a few thou. too long.The bolt was ramming the cartridge home but it went a few thou. past the point where the firing pin would pop and then stuck itself in the chamber. This barrel has somewhere around 10-11 K rounds through it (yeah, I shot it a lot back when I first owned it) and the chamber was....seems to be worn out.It still looks good (I still have the barrel) and has nice rifling, but I bought a Richardson Wrench and put a new Savage barrel on the gun and now it runs EVERYTHING perfectly. I even tried it with all the parts I had swapped out in the troubleshooting process, and with the new barrel, all the parts were good to go. Not saying it couldn't be one of the simpler fixes, and I would certainly try all of those first, but if you get to a point where you have nothing left but the barrel, try the barrel!It worked for me. Good luck! john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted June 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 It's been a great "Thompson" weekend! On Friday some friends stopped by the farm and we made the trek to the back 40 for a little "Rock 'n roll". One of the guys brought an M1 Garand so it was fun to shoot a couple of WWII relics. Then on Saturday I had the opportunity to meet fellow Board member Joseph12297 for lunch. He has recently moved to a local town and it was great to meet a fellow NFA (and Thompson) enthusiast. Not only did he buy lunch, he also brought me some really cool goodies to go with my 1928 (original manual, cleaning rod, ammo, cases, Marine Corp Handbook and advertisement). I was (and still am) a bit speechless at Larry's generosity; will have to come up with something good as a "thank you". Then last night my wife gave me an early fathers day gift... " The Ultimate Thomposon Book"! I spent quite a few hours last night poring over it, as well as today. Then today was spent in the shop cleaning guns, especially the Thompson. The two L drums appear to be United Specialties fifth generator drums. The two C drums, serial numbered 2298 and 2337 appear to be Numrich late model C drums. One will slide into the receiver fairly easily, but the second one is difficult to insert all the way so I will need to do a little fine tuning on it and also check out how well they feed. In addition to cleaning, I installed the replacement buffer spring today. There was a noticeable difference in both tension and length between it and the original spring, and I can tell that the bolt is closing much more positively than before. I am hopeful that this will correct the feed problem with the stick mags. I'm still waiting on the new buffer disk to arrive; most likely it will show up in this weeks mail. I had previously promised some additional photo's; they are attached below. Many thanks to all for the advice and feedback previously shared. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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