Tragic day for NFA owners

[Sandman1957]

What a horrible tragedy in Arizona. First, my heart and prayers to the families that have been destroyed by this accident.

Like many of you everyone came to my desk today to seek the machinegun collector's opinion... I am sure this will play on the news like a virus.

 

Without sounding like a Monday morning quarterback, I often do let kids shoot my machineguns. I am safety concious and have my own personal rules. I am not going to comment on what may have gone wrong in this tragic accident, I am going to say what I do and do NOT do.

 

My machinegun of choice for kids to fire is my 1921 or 1928 Thompson. Its my choice for a reason. It is heavy. It has a long barrel, and most importantly, it has a wonderful 22 kit. I normally have a table or bench that is sandbagged with the long barrel resting on a shooter's bag. The stock is on the gun, and most times under their arm. I am to their left and we start in semi for several shots. There is no muzzle climb. my hand is over the barrel, and I have also used a wooden frame cutout to insure that the muzzle cannot be turned but so far to the left or right. Bottom line it is controlled.

The smaller the gun and bigger the bullet the risks increase. Kids don't shoot 9mm or 45 unless that pass the 22 test.

In 9mm they shoot a suppressed Smith and Wesson 76. First the suppressor lengthens the barrel, and it makes it far heavier with little to zero muzzle climb. It is long enough to put in a frame. I have a reising in 45. Kids don't shoot it. It has horrible muzzle climb that even adults are suprized with. Its not for kids.

If it has a stock extend it and use it. It is designed to add control to the gun. Use a sandbag and rest. Use a frame if you need to. Have a barrel long enough that can be grabbed. Remember, these are kids, its susposed to be the happiest day of their life, not the most horrible day, nor last day. Use judgement. You are the adult. They are not. If you see something unsafe fix it.

Please share your thoughts on safety with others and always be the one who steps up and says to someone, hey you need to do this or that. Be the role model for responsibility.

 

My prayers to the families of the deceased and this little girl, who will have a lifetime of nightmares.

Be safe guys

Sandman1957

 

[Devil Dog 1110]

Steve

There was another tragic accident in Mass. a few years ago that was very similar to this one.

An 8 year old boy shot himself in the head while firing an Uzi on full auto on a gun range with adult supervision.

Your comments about safety when letting children fire full auto guns are very well made but I think they also should be applied to anyone shooting full auto guns who lack experience with these type weapons.

The press is having a field day with this latest accident- we don't need to give the anti gun crowd any more ammo than they already have.

 

DD

[hntrdarren]

Well said Sandman 1957, Well said !

[jim c 351]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/9-year-old-girl-accidentally-shoots-dead-gun-instructor-uzi-police-article-1.1917858

 

Jim C

[smkummer]

I took some new young woman shooters (from California) out with their father one day. We started with 22 rifles, then 22 handguns. Then 38 revolvers. We went into the M16 with SA and when it was time for FA, the magazine only had 3 rounds in it initially. I then let them shoot the grease gun, starting with only a couple of rounds in the magazine. They did fine. The finally of the day was one of them doing a mag. dump with the grease gun and the other doing it with the MP40. I remember reading what Frank I. stated with new shooters and that was to start with only a couple of rounds in a magazine for the first time full auto. In this situation, we started with guns that only fired SA and when it was time for FA, they only had a couple of rounds in case one would freeze on the trigger. It all worked fine. With an Uzi and especially a Mac, it would be very important to start with SA and slowly work up to FA with only a few rounds at a time.

[timkel]

Yes, a tragedy. Wasn't a child killed on the firing line at Knob Creek a few years ago? John Wayne was almost killed by a runaway Ingram M-10(Mac Man book p162). How many AD's still happen at gun shows. There is risk with everything we do.

Edited August 29, 2014 by timkel

[Paladin601]

A Fullerton California Police Officer (Firearms Instructor) was killed a few years ago when he lost control of an Mac 10. It happens even to the best.

[TSMGguy]

Saw the raw feed of this accident on Youtube before it was removed. With the Uzi involved firing in full auto, the child swung the gun left toward her instructor, killing him. I don't think that the gun's recoil had anything to do with what happened.

 

The gun was firing very fast, not like the normal 5-600 RPM ROF associated with Uzis. I wonder if maybe a .22 kit had been installed?

 

 

When doing this type of instruction, I always stand behind and very close to the shooter, where I can almost instantly get control of the weapon if necessary.

[jim c 351]

I let a lot of rookies, women and kids, shoot my firearms.

My 2 best guns for that purpose are an Uzi and an M1 TSMG, both with 22 units installed. They both have a vertical foregrips for better control. Even if they freeze on the trigger the recoil is so light that they can hold it on target.

For center fire guns , the best is the M3 Grease gun. It shoots so slow that rookies frequently let off the trigger after one or 2 shots.

As far as the Reising is concerned, rookies are limited to semi only.

My father, a WW2 vet, told me a story about training on the 50 cal Browning. In an effort to stop trainees from freezing on the trigger they were required to wear a helmet liner when firing. A Sergeant stood behind them with an MP billie club. If the trigger was not released after a proper burst the trainee was given a sharp rap on the helmet with the club.

In my humble opinion, guns like the Mac 10, Mini and Micro Uzi and FA pistols like the Glock are accidents waiting to happen.

Silencers and long barrels also help prevent tragedies . Gives the instructors something to grab onto.

Jim C

[Chief762]

An awful accident...everyone please review and if necessary, revise our safety protocols.

[RoscoeTurner]

Not at Knob Creek, it was on a range in one of the New England states. The only fatality at Knob Creek was a child who was killed by a heavy machine gun and mount falling on top of the child.

Yes, a tragedy. Wasn't a child killed on the firing line at Knob Creek a few years ago? John Wayne was almost killed by a runaway Ingram M-6. How many AD's still happen at gun shows. There is risk with everything we do.

[james m]

I haven't seen this video but I see reported here and elsewhere that the UZI had a high rate of fire. I'm wondering if perhaps this was a mini-UZI which cycles faster then the standard model?
Jim

[Kilroy]

New shooters always start out on my 10/22 that is a SBR and suppressed. It also has a red dot on it which I think gives a new shooter every advantage they can have when shooting. Aiming is simple, put the dot on what you want to hit, it's light and it's quiet taking away some of the anticipation/fear. Then when they do good with that I'll graduate them up to something a bit bigger, usually an M1 carbine. Let them get comfortable and then graduate to something bigger yet like an '03 or a Garand. If they do well with those and I'm confident in their shooting then do they get a chance with my Thompson. That being said, I do not have a conversion kit for my Thompson and when someone is shooting it for the first time it's on semi for at least the first five shots and I am standing immediately over their shoulder.

 

I think the semi thing is important especially to do with experienced shooters who have never fired an open bolt gun. Let's them know about the 'delay' between Pulling the trigger and the bang.

[thirtyround]

TIMKEL, PM sent

[dalbert]

It was a mini-Uzi.

 

David

[21 smoker]

The Mini-uzi is very hard to control....clearly this is a terrible mistake to involve a child with such a firearm...the Mini always climbs to the left with a right handed shooter,same for the MAC....I feel terrible for both families...hindsight being 20/20,..an MP40 is a much better choice as well as the other examples mentioned previously

[james m]

A Mini UZI is very difficult to control and my club took theirs off the rental list for just that reason. I have now reviewed this video and IMO the instructor made a fatal mistake.

I was trained to stand behind an amateur full auto shooter with my right hand on their left shoulder to stabilize them. Additionally my left arm was always placed in front of the shooter and to the left of the gun. This allows one to almost instantaneously grab and secure the gun should the shooter begin veering to the right as happend in this case. I had to do exactly this on more than one occasion.

The Instructor had his right hand on the shooters lower back and his left hand is nowhere to be seen. I believe this is what cost him his life.

Jim