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The Battle at Barrington


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By now all of you NRA members have received and read the nice article in the May American Rifleman.

This is about the final gun battle of Baby Face Nelson and the Bureau.

The author, Steven Hunter, comes to the conclusion that Nelson killed the agents with the Colt Monitor.

I seem to remember that Larry Wack provided forensic evidence that at least one agent was killed with the 351 Win.

What's wrong with my memory??

Jim C

Edited by jim c 351
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Colt Chopper is the Nelson expert. I'll let him go thru this again.

 

Jim C: You & I probably have the same memory issues- To many Birthday Candles. Colt Chopper is just a damn kid !

 

OCM

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Since I haven't seen Hunter's article, I personally don't know how his conclusions were reached. Having said that, attached is probably the forensic evidence regarding the Hollis head wounds that you folks recall seeing. The direction pointed towards the .351 as you'll note.

 

I'm also attaching the report of the Barrington shooting by FBI Supervisor Virgil Peterson which will also provide summaries of who will testify to what in the Chase trial. In general, I find Peterson's report to be a good reference to what happened overall.

 

In other documents it's apparent to me anyhow that initially, Chase provided conflicting information in his early statements with what existed otherwise including forensics. Chase no doubt was trying to minimize his role in the actual killings of Hollis and Cowley at that particular scene, although he admits to firing on them during the car chase.

 

Larry Wack

FBI - Ret.

hollisheadwoundcomparison.pdf

cowholpetersonreport.pdf

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There ya go Jim. I think most of this is in the Helmer/Nickel book, Baby Face Nelson in 2002. Don't know why these " authors " don't do at least mild research prior to writing these novels in magazines. This has been going on forever tho.

 

Good job Larry, especially the medical report.

 

Always wondered where the Monitor went. Like loosing a canon.

 

AND, maybe Nelson was using Chopper's Thompson. ?

 

OCM

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Not my 351s. But yes there is the possibility Chopper's Chopper jammed on him, we've gone over this in the past I think.

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Gents,

 

In the interest of fairness and more importantly, the facts surrounding the Barrington shoot out, there is something that needs to be mentioned here regarding this extremely complicated post shooting investigation. All of it is a myriad of witness accounts, extensive Lab exams, ballistic testing and more that is extremely mind boggling to say the least.

 

In view of the NRA article and the author's observations and conclusions about which weapons killed Hollis, Cowley and Nelson, I was curious by the mention of .45 cal in the killing of Hollis (i. e. via the colt monitor) since we had the Lab report etc. revealing .351 cranial findings. As a result, over the last few days, I took a look at the files again, this time advancing forward into the time frame of nearing the upcoming Chase trial and what evidence had surfaced and what would be used. I had not examined this post shooting investigation myself in several years now.

 

In a nutshell, Hollis cranial fragments did....in fact.....also reveal .45 caliber fragment. This was going to pose some questions with the .351 findings in that it was going to be difficult to prove some aspects of Chase/Nelson guns used and what exactly happened during the gunfire exchanges. My own observations of the trial evidence at hand, the extensive Lab exams, and witness statements at the scene reveal to me personally that any conclusions reached by researchers and others are going to be debated until "hell freezes over."

 

I'm adding a memo or maybe two if I see them, with some concerns ongoing at the time with the upcoming prosecution of Chase murdering SA Hollis, as shown in the indictment. (An indictment for the murder of Cowley would come later)

 

"Enjoy"

Larry Wack

FBI - Ret.

 

 

Chase trial problems.pdf

post-258934-0-78125100-1493385168_thumb.png

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This is a Chicago Tribune photo of some of the stuff recovered after the Barrington battle, mainly clothes, money belt, bed sheet that was on Nelson. Also they show a Super Match Super 38 with the items. There are two different shots of the articles. These are the same guys that are with Nelson's body in the funeral home.

I've heard, but never found, that the Thompson used was also used as evidence in the Helen Gillis trial . Helmer said one eyewitness said the rifle, meaning the Winchester 07, was or sounded like a machine gun . Bill thought it was mistaken due to the rapid fire. Myself always pondered if it was a Lebman conversion, don't think so. Monitor ?

Wondering where the 07 went if used in trial, if not where did it go, & the Monitor and Colt Choppers Thompson !

Right ?

Here is the Nelson car, nice tight 5 shot pattern on the passenger si with a Colt Monitor !

 

OCM

 

Edited by OCM
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As a reminder to some who may have forgotten or not aware regarding the Chase/Hollis indictment, although he had been serving time for the murder of Inspector Cowley, 20 years later Chase had not yet been tried on the December 31, 1934, indictment charging him with Special Agent Hollis’s murder. On April 27, 1955, a motion was filed in United States District Court, Chicago, Illinois, demanding immediate trial on this indictment or its dismissal.

 

On October 17, 1955, a United States District judge dismissed the indictment that charged Chase with Hollis’s murder. He held that Chase’s mere knowledge of the indictment and his failure to take action did not constitute a waiver of his right to a speedy trial.

When the pending indictment was dismissed, Chase became eligible for parole. After parole had been denied repeatedly, Chase finally was paroled from Leavenworth on October 31, 1966. After his release, Chase resided in California, where he was employed as a custodian for over six years. He died of cancer in 1973.

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Gents,

 

In the interest of fairness and more importantly, the facts surrounding the Barrington shoot out, there is something that needs to be mentioned here regarding this extremely complicated post shooting investigation. All of it is a myriad of witness accounts, extensive Lab exams, ballistic testing and more that is extremely mind boggling to say the least.

 

In view of the NRA article and the author's observations and conclusions about which weapons killed Hollis, Cowley and Nelson, I was curious by the mention of .45 cal in the killing of Hollis (i. e. via the colt monitor) since we had the Lab report etc. revealing .351 cranial findings. As a result, over the last few days, I took a look at the files again, this time advancing forward into the time frame of nearing the upcoming Chase trial and what evidence had surfaced and what would be used. I had not examined this post shooting investigation myself in several years now.

 

In a nutshell, Hollis cranial fragments did....in fact.....also reveal .45 caliber fragment. This was going to pose some questions with the .351 findings in that it was going to be difficult to prove some aspects of Chase/Nelson guns used and what exactly happened during the gunfire exchanges. My own observations of the trial evidence at hand, the extensive Lab exams, and witness statements at the scene reveal to me personally that any conclusions reached by researchers and others are going to be debated until "hell freezes over."

 

I'm adding a memo or maybe two if I see them, with some concerns ongoing at the time with the upcoming prosecution of Chase murdering SA Hollis, as shown in the indictment. (An indictment for the murder of Cowley would come later)

 

Larry, many thanks for these snippets. Unfortunately the Dillinger files published in the FBI Vault are cut off at #62-29777-1406 or so, so the many thousand files in that file are not currently easily accessible. I'd be very interested to see the rest of the files, to say the least ;)

 

Oh, and Larry, could you give us the complete file number? It says #62-29777-564_ and the last number is cut off. Many thanks!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited by HANS
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This is a Chicago Tribune photo of some of the stuff recovered after the Barrington battle, mainly clothes, money belt, bed sheet that was on Nelson. Also they show a Super Match Super 38 with the items. There are two different shots of the articles. These are the same guys that are with Nelson's body in the funeral home.

I've heard, but never found, that the Thompson used was also used as evidence in the Helen Gillis trial . Helmer said one eyewitness said the rifle, meaning the Winchester 07, was or sounded like a machine gun . Bill thought it was mistaken due to the rapid fire. Myself always pondered if it was a Lebman conversion, don't think so. Monitor ?

Wondering where the 07 went if used in trial, if not where did it go, & the Monitor and Colt Choppers Thompson !

Right ?

 

Sandy, many thanks for these photos, the Super .38 Match is news to me. It's not mentioned in the FBI material I've seen on the case. Do you know its serial and where it was found and ended up?

 

Regarding the Thompson used by Nelson, Gordon Herringstad apparently believed it was #2179, which he claimed was found in Nelson's car (along with a Colt Ace and a Winchester .22 rifle), but he didn't reveal his sources. It doesn't add up with the FBI files (including the one mentioned by Larry above) that say that no Thompson was found.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Trying to think, was it Chase that found religion in California and wrote a book with a local priest, maybe someone else?

 

HANS- Don't know the number, don't even know why the FBI said they didn't recover any guns but this one pops up in a photo with the recovered ( dumped) cloths. I have no clue what the Super 38 is doing in the photo. ? Why ?

 

Larry is very correct, this stuff just goes up & down and round and round....

 

Don't know where Gordon got the information.

 

I do know that Hollis almost blew Nelson's liver out of his left side with a Thompson. The original " Dead Man Walking " at the end . Deserved every bit !

 

Also, still believe this could be Colt Chopper's Thompson. Such a damn mystery surrounding the Nelson Thompson other then who owns it now.

 

I keep telling CJL & Colt Chopper they aught to get together and do a reenactment of the Barrington battle.

Between the two of them they have all the correct weaponry. Monitor, Nelson Thompson, Winchester 07s etc.

Need a wife and a 34 Ford Fordor too.

 

Anyway

 

 

OCM

Edited by OCM
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Hans, the last digit is an "8."

 

I've attached a 1934 document showing the Nelson Thompson etc. submitted for Lab exam.

 

Also, I've attached a document revealing that as late as 1967, the Nelson Thompson and others were at FBIHQ. There's a notation that in 1968 they were placed in the Firearms Reference Section. I cannot confirm that they are still there today. As for statements to the effect that weapons were not found etc., I'd only be speculating without knowing what was transpiring during these comments.

 

larry wack

 

 

1967 chase:nelson weapons.pdf

34 Nelson gun submissions.pdf

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HMMMM , so by what Larry sent, there was a Nelson Thompson recovered at the Barrington battle. Who, what, where ? I'm not 100% a believer in FBI docs from the 30s, but this has some substance, doesn't it ???

AND I wonder, if the gun the FBI is refereeing to, December, 1934 , is the Little Bohemia acid raised Thompson(s) ? Doesn't seem to refer to the Barrington battle.. Just the Nelson Thompson .

AND my old Helmer story comes to mind, about one being used as evidence in the Helen Gillis trial. Also, CC brought to mind today, at a conversation, that there was an ACE in the backseat, recovered . Odd little gangster tool, says I.

Crazy.....

 

Remember I bail out on the Time Machine thing on this.

 

Yes Ron, Colt Chopper is working on this, best his future Mrs, Chopper , stays away from the crazy banter on the Forum. Can't speak for CJL

 

OCM

Edited by OCM
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I'm a true novice at all of this stuff (and loving all of it ;)), but did the FBI retain the cranial .45 fragments found in Hollis? If so, was there enough of them left to run ballistics, that could then be compared with Chopper's suspected Barrington Thompson, for a potential match?

 

Rob

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Hans, the last digit is an "8."

 

I've attached a 1934 document showing the Nelson Thompson etc. submitted for Lab exam.

 

Also, I've attached a document revealing that as late as 1967, the Nelson Thompson and others were at FBIHQ. There's a notation that in 1968 they were placed in the Firearms Reference Section. I cannot confirm that they are still there today. As for statements to the effect that weapons were not found etc., I'd only be speculating without knowing what was transpiring during these comments.

 

larry wack

 

Larry, many thanks!

 

#62-29777-4963 confirms that they did, indeed, find one Thompson attributed to Nelson. This is at odds with other files, including #62-29777-5050, which mentions no weapons recovered at Barrington other than the Colt Ace pistol.

 

#62-73357-351 not only gives us the number of the Thompson found, but also lists other weapons including the Colt Ace. Curiously, it lacks both the Colt Monitor and Winchester Model 07 that were being used at Barrington, but lists two .22-calibre pump-action rifles and a Winchester Model 94 lever-action, none of which appeared before, apparently. Again this is at odds with #62-29777-5050, which not only doesn't list them, but mentions Chase's recollection that in addition to the Thompson, there were only three rifles in the car, a Colt Monitor, a bolt-action rifle, and a "clip-loaded rifle", presumably a Winchester Model 07.

 

So -- what we would need to know is where were these weapons attributed to Chase actually found? Since all of the other sources don't mention the guns being found in the car, but list stuff such as magazines etc, I'd hazard to guess that they were found, with the exception of the Colt Ace, somewhere else -- just like the Colt Super .38 Match pistol Sandy introduced above. Where could that have been? When Chase was arrested in December 1934, he was hitchhiking, it is unlikely that he had one Thompson and three rifles on him. Any idea?

 

Thanks again for the files!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Also, CC brought to mind today, at a conversation, that there was an ACE in the backseat, recovered . Odd little gangster tool, says I.

 

The Colt Ace is the only gun that appears in ALL the files and accounts. They could definitely prove that Chase had bought it in Reno, which is probably why they always mentioned it -- it was more difficult to prove ownership of any other guns, and they wanted to nail Chase, not Nelson, the latter being dead.

 

Almost all of the gangsters of the 1930s had non-gangster guns in their arsenals. While their work tools were big pistols, Thompsons, and automatic rifles, many of them enjoyed hunting (hence all those weird lever-action deer rifles) and many of them practised shooting (hence all those .22-calibre pistols and rifles).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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Gents,

 

I am literally in the middle of packing for a residential move from Buffalo area to Danville, Kentucky with departure date this coming Tuesday. I have to run around today but I'll try to attempt to address some of these finding issues later on, on here, or tomorrow at the max. I am not going to have all the answers at this juncture. By Monday, my Internet service here will be cut off and I won't get service down there until I arrange for it and you know how that goes time wise. Best I'll be able to do maybe is take my Ipad to a "hot spot" coffee shop on Main St. down there and communicate from there.

 

The only file I am pulling documents from is the 62 Dillinger FOIA file. 62-29777

 

Off the top, and I don't know if anyone can find it, but transcripts of the Chase trial, the testimony of officers, Lab experts ....who found what, where, and the rest may be a viable option. If again, you can find it.

 

Back to you later....

Larry Wack

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One last thing for what it's worth.

 

I didn't know Gordon but in my contacts with him, he was amiable and helpful and he knew I was a former Agent. He had discussed his travel to FBIHQ back in the early 90s I think it was and his meetings with Firearms and Lab personnel in doing his research etc. He obviously had some great access to the records back then and no doubt "made some friends" who were also interested in his research. I'm sure his contact with them continued for years. Obviously he could fill in the gaps for them at times, and they could assist his research with records. There was nothing wrong with that at the time....

 

My discussions on and off with Gordon were comical at times because in asking a question, he'd sometimes say to me "my sources told me" or "I can't reveal my sources, etc." I used to remind him that it was pretty apparent who his "sources" were.....and no need to play "007" with me on the phone.

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