drbones2nd Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 I found a Colt 21a serial number 41 in a guys collection that in the near future is wanting to sell. I personally viewed the gun and the only thing that is original Colt is the upper and barrel assembly. The rest of the gun is put together from WW2 1928 Thompson parts including the lower reciever. The wood may be original wood but I was not positive. When I looked through Tracy Hills book this gun was the very first commercial gun released from production. Its unfortunate that only the upper and barrel assembly are original but maybe someone out there has the original serial number 41 lower. Other than that, the upper is in great shape and I would rate it an easy 90%. It has the original finish on it as well. Again, he has not decided to sell it yet but might in the very near future. So, I would be brokering this for him. The gun was registered during the amnesty and is currently on a form four. Email me with your ideas on approximate value. Thank you, J.D. Midland Arms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 To certain collectors quite a bit, being the 1st one. I would be surprised that it is the original finish with non original parts. In the condition it is in not anywhere near 100% original parts, I would say a minimum of $20k with a #41 serial number and #41 barrel, I am assuming no original finish. The 1st 1,000 TMSG's went out with #'s at the breach end of the barrel. If that is the original barrel you are in luck. I am sure I will get flamed on that value assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hi, I don't think you are going to get any takers on that one, at least not on this Board. All the best information over the years indicates that Serial No. 41 was sold to the Government of Mexico. There were some parts kits imported some years ago, but the receivers were destroyed. That gun would have been unearthed years ago if it was legitimate. The earliest number Colt gun part in private hands is grip frame No. 44, in a private collection. Somebody is putting you on or you are trying to put someone on. If you were positive about the legtimacy of the Colt receiver and barrel then you certainly would know if the wood was original. Your story doesn't sound right, sorry. Forgot to answer your earlier question about value. If it did happen to be the real thing, you don't need our advice, you could name your price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 As G.I. Jive says, #41 is MIA. Better take another look at that serial number and how it was applied. #41 aslo saw much government use before finding its way to Mexico. There is no way that receiver would be 90%. If by some hocus pocus it was actually #41, even with the mismatched non-Colt lower, it would be worth (Sig's figure must be based on 1980 market values), around $50K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Oh that hurt. Knew I was going to get toasted on that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones2nd Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Guys, I am only forwarding what I saw. This guy is 78 years old and retired from the military. I purchased an original C&R M2 carbine from him 3 months ago that was his actuall carry gun during the Korean conflict. He brought out this Colt as I was wrapping up the paperwork and put it in my lap. It was indeed marked serial number 41 on the upper reciever and it was indeed a Colt. I have owned several Colt Thompsons in the past and this was the real deal. If you do not believe me well that is your perogative. But if and when he does decided to sell this gun I will be in a better position to give it a thorough work up. I only had a few minutes to look it over and as I posted above, the reciever did look like the original blue finish in remarakable condition. He got the gun from Fort Benning Ga during his return home from korea. His job in the military was involved with the arsenal in some capacity. Yes, it was registered because along with the gun he had the original amnesty paperwork attached to the buttstock! Again, I am sorry you think this is some kind of bogus post but my only concern is to get this vet what he deserves if and when he decides to part with it. He currently is suffering from throat cancer so I cannot imagine him being around on this earth much longer. His family deserves to get the most out of his collection if he does pass and my intention is to assist them. I used to be an active member of this board and I always found it helpful but I have since sold my Thompsons for other guns and I was only hoping to get some intelligent input and advice. Thank you for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Drbones, what a discovery! If you indeed aquire that remarkable piece, do let us know. It has been quite sometime that you have posted here (Two years?), and it's great to see you on the board again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones2nd Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Thank you lionhart and I am impressed with your memory!! As I stated above, there is no need to get too excited yet because he has not decided to release this gun but hopefully when he does it will indeed be a real piece of history. Maybe the posts above are correct, maybe this is some type of forgery but based on his other guns and his history I sincerely doubt it. Perhaps this will inevitably require a call to Tracie Hill but until this gentlemen decides to part with it, there is no reason to get too excited about it. It may be next week or next year. Thanks again lionhart. Drbones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full auto 45 Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Great find there Doc. Glad to see you back. Thought maybe Arty or someone scared you away. Still in Mi? If & when you get a chance to look at it again, see if you can get a photo of it for our info. If it is indeed #41, I might even go for about $15 or 20k for a "pony" gun. Keep active there Doc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones2nd Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Absolutely! If and when he calls me and wants to sell it, I will definetely get some detailed digital pics and post them. For now, I will just wait and see.. Good to here from you guys as well....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Mike, I think you scared drbones with that chicken shit offer! dr, This guy liberated this Colt #41 from the Ft. Benning arsenal? But he also has amnesty paperwork? Seems he should be spliting the proceeds of the sale with Korean War era tax payers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 There is good news and good news. The first good news is Serial Number 41 lower frame is in the USA - See Tracie's book on page 44. Of course, this is the first lower frame for Serial Number 41 Colt Thompson - no buttstock is needed. It is owned by Reed Knight. (The lower frame for Serial Number 44 is also in the USA. Colt Thompson Serial Number 45 is at the Museum of Connecticut History. It has no serial number on the lower frame.) If this Thompson were legitimate, it would be the find of the century (to the gun world). The other good news is their are enough Thompson experts around to authenticate this Thompson if it does surface on the market. I don't think you could fake this one...or should I say 41! If authentic, I would put it up for auction. Unfortunately, it may leave the United States if sold at auction. But if the need is to help this veteran and his family is of paramount importance, a properly conducted auction would provide the best return for value. I would first check with a tax specialist to see if it would be better to auction it before or after the veteran passes away. I believe this gun would bring well over 50K. An effort to minimize taxes on a sale like this would be the number one priority. Please keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbones2nd Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Thanks for your posts and if this is indeed legitimate, which I think it is, then when the time comes there will certainly be a thorough investigation of its registration and origin and of course its authenticity. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Dr Bones, Would it be possible to get pics? That tells a lot! Is this gun still in MI? I live in Howell, and would be happy to see it / photograph it with you! By the way, there are a lot of Colt internals on Evilbay before they ban Tommy parts. One item is a complete lower- wonder what's inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Just a shot in the dark from a non-expert here, but is it possible this could be a NAC gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Philasteen NAC gun now that is an interesting question! michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 A "TRUE" collector would not pay a real PREMUIM for an incomplete gun. That’s the first thing. Secondly, the gun could be a fake. I am not saying it IS a fake, but must suggest the possibility of it. Next thing; the gun is not worth 50K if it was in 80% condition and complete. After all we are talking about a Colt copy of an Auto Ordnance original. The barrel must be removed to determine if the barrel number is 41 as well. If it were, then the gun would appear to be an authentic colt copy of an auto ordnance original. If you want an appraisal doc, I would say that if it were the real thing, then some asinine colt collector would certainly pay $20+K for it. Offer it at 35K and take any offer over 25k (the max value of a 99% condition 1928 Navy gun with every possible extra). Jr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 If Colt Thompson NO 41 was a complete 80% gun with no questions concerning its authenticity (and properly papered), it would bring over 100K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZDoug Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Early barrels had the serial number stamped on the barrel itself, on the chamber rim. Speaking on numbers, i found a buttstock hanger in my parts collection that has a number stamped on it, 4137 or something. too bad i don't have the wood and buttplate to go with it. :-) Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Phil,...my amnesty registered Savage 28 has no additional numbers or markings to distinquish it from normal registry tmsgs,as far as I can see on the gun or paperwork... on the chamber number...you have a chance that it it partially exposed depending on where it was stamped and how the barrel was seated... close inspection is definetly needed before you remove the barrel...FWIW, http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Could this guy have gotten a hold of an over run Colt un-numbered receiver before Numrich started stamping NAC on them with his serial numbers? Possibly. But if we are to take this story at face value, this guy abscunded with a military base armory Thompson back in the early 1950's which would render improbable that this guy, or the military, got a hold of a receiver out of a crate that Numrich "discovered" back in 1951. Numrich was obliged to stamp NAC on all these unregistered TSMG's before submitting applications for registration to ATF. If the number 41 does appear on the barrel face and behind the grip mount it would go a long way in authenticating this as the real #41. But of course if this guy's intention all along was to commit a fraud it would not be all that difficult to get another latter manufactured Colt barrel 50 years ago and mark it #41. The fact that this is an amnesty reigistered TSMG means he could well have had a dummy receiver made sometime before 1968 and had any number stamped on it knowing that Colt serial #41 would not be in ATF's registry. This is the problem with a lot of Colt TSMG serial numbers that have no documented history. When one of these (especially the first commercial serial numbered gun to roll off the assembly line), shows up after being lost for 83 years there are a lot of questions that may never be answered to anyone's satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 How many Colt manufactured receivers did Numrich find in 1951? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawksnest Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Norm: Quoting from page 206 of Helmer's "The gun that made the twenty's roar" ... "When George Numrich picked up the crated assets of Auto-Ordnance, he was suprised to discover that some of the boxes contained complete submachineguns - some eighty-six in all, including several of the very earliest prototypes. To comply with federal law, Numrich immediately registered the guns with the Treasury Department." ... Helmer doesn't say if all 86 were Colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Why can't I find a crate with eighty-six Thompsons in it!?! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Phil, I have not read yet any answer to your question about amnesty registering a gun - with no questions asked. Reason I am curious is I have s/n "15043" which we know is a fake, but still it is registered as 15043. My curiousity comes from this gun having the same story - registered but (probably) not the original s/n. The big question - were there people faking s/n's on guns prior to 1968? I dount there was any collectability in these guns at the time (I don't recall - I was 10!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now