Thompson Guns in British & Aussie Service

[Bridgeport28A1]

My former British Home Guard Thompson chest was marked Nichols and James. Thanks for the additional information.

[Mk VII]

The Educational Supply Association made school desks, chairs, etc. A neighbour (now dead) worked for them in a secretarial/administrative capacity in the 1970s. The National Archives indicated that the company's surviving records are deposited at our county records office so I went there to see what they might have on the subject. My spirits fell as I was handed a slim envelope - nothing about the wars years, and very little at all - just one or two brochures from the '20s or '30s and a company director's report to the employees from the 1960s.

They made concertina doors that went all down the side of the TB hospitals so that they could open up the room to fresh air, which was supposed to be good for consumption.

[rpbcps]

The Educational Supply Association made school desks, chairs, etc. A neighbour (now dead) worked for them in a secretarial/administrative capacity in the 1970s. The National Archives indicated that the company's surviving records are deposited at our county records office so I went there to see what they might have on the subject. My spirits fell as I was handed a slim envelope - nothing about the wars years, and very little at all - just one or two brochures from the '20s or '30s and a company director's report to the employees from the 1960s.

They made concertina doors that went all down the side of the TB hospitals so that they could open up the room to fresh air, which was supposed to be good for consumption.

James,

Thank you for that confirmation, we can eliminate that link for the stock then.

 

I have also updated my own notes, replacing 'ESA' with Educational Supply Association.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited May 23, 2020 by rpbcps

[Bridgeport28A1]

 

The Educational Supply Association made school desks, chairs, etc. A neighbour (now dead) worked for them in a secretarial/administrative capacity in the 1970s. The National Archives indicated that the company's surviving records are deposited at our county records office so I went there to see what they might have on the subject. My spirits fell as I was handed a slim envelope - nothing about the wars years, and very little at all - just one or two brochures from the '20s or '30s and a company director's report to the employees from the 1960s.

They made concertina doors that went all down the side of the TB hospitals so that they could open up the room to fresh air, which was supposed to be good for consumption.

James,

Thank you for that confirmation, we can eliminate that link for the stock then.

 

I have also updated my own notes, replacing 'ESA' with Educational Supply Association.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

So my M1 Broad Arrow ESA butt stock was likely modified by Educational Supply Association in England?

 

[Mk VII]

I think that's more likely to be an Indian mark. You see similar ones on Short Lee-Enfields with Indian history.

[AlanDavid]

Bridgeport28A1

 

The modification to the butt with two wood screws was announced in the British, Army Council notifications, being 1909 from 1942. "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws.".

 

However in the case of your butt I think the modification would most likely have been done in India due to the Indian marking on the butt. Can't be 100% certain though, as the weapon could have been modified in the U.K. before seeing service with Indian forces. The former is the most likely scenario I would think.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

 

[AlanDavid]

On the subject of the acronym 'ESA' with the Broad Arrow, over the last week or so, I have been trying to research further into the acronym with limited success.

 

The book I always forgot to refer to, which is full of information, is the Ian Skennerton, Small Arms Identification Series volume on the Thompson Sub-machine gun. In that book it says that the letter 'FR' refers to ‘Factory repair India’, but have found no other references to India.

 

Incidentally, the answer may be in another book published by Skennerton, 'The Broad Arrow - British and Empire Factory Production, proof, inspection, armourers, unit & issue markings'. But it is out of print and listed on Abebooks for $573, and on other sites for $1000. Fortunately, I have discovered that the 2^nd edition of the book has been printed in Thailand, however, due to the Coronavirus, the stock is still in Thailand. So, sometime in the future when the book becomes available, it may shine further light on the acronym ‘ESA’.

 

Another link lists the 'Indian Broad Arrow', as an 'I' above the arrow.

 

A list ‘MOD Acronyms and Abbreviations’, that I found on line has ESA listed as ‘End Stage Assessment’, but I have been unable to find out what an ‘End stage assessment’ is, so still no further forward on that and I am not sure it would have been stamped on weapon stocks in the past.

 

Finally, note contractor No. 3 below, which may just be a coincidence, and I can't recall where I read this information now, but I made a note of it:

 

"A total of 63,051 Thompson Machine carbine transit chests were produced, by the following contractors:

1. Nichols & James produced 24,601 (including 48 contract overruns which the Ministry took anyway)
2. Harris Lebus produced 17,000
3. ESA produced 16,400
4. India (Karachi) produced 5000"

Before anyone mentions it, I noted the listed production numbers do not add up to the total given of 63.051, but not my error, that was in the original text!

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard

 

The information on the Thompson wooden chests will have come from the contract ledgers in Kew. I think this info is also in Tom's book.

 

Nicholas & James 750

Nicholas & James 2800

Nicholas & James 10003

Harris Lebus 8000

Educational Supplies Assn Ltd 7400

Harris Lebus 9000

Educational supplies Assn Ltd 9050

Nichol & James 9000

India 5000

 

Total 61,003 - This figure is what is shown in the right hand column of the ledger page, on the left column a figure brought forward of 73,000 is show.

 

The cost of each chest varied being just under a Pound to about one Pound five shillings.

 

The fist order of 750 chests has three dates attached to it, 1st February 1940, 20th April 1940 and 13th May 1940.

 

On a more general note, it will be seen these dates are before the LDV or Home guard came into being, so it is quite erroneous for collectors to refer to them as the Home Guard chest. The HG has them but so did the Army & Navy. As Richard has in his post they are Thompson Machine Carbine transit chests.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

[rpbcps]

Thank you Alan,

I'll update my notes with this new information that you have provided, which is very comprehensive.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited May 24, 2020 by rpbcps

[rpbcps]

Couple of photos with Indian and British troops armed with Thompsons from Burma in 1945.

 

Soldiers of the 7th Rajput Regiment in May 1945, part of 26th Indian Division, on the Arakan front in Burma.

Troops of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, who made up No. 1 Commando, defending Hill 170 at Kangaw, Arakan on 31 January 1945. One officer of the Royal Norfolk Regt., Lieutenant Knowland was killed after fighting off sustained attacks single-handed for 36 hours, for this, he was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross.

 

My Grandfather, Henry Ernst Hudson, served with the 7th Battalion of the Royal Norfolk Regt. in France, part of the famous 51st (Highland) Infantry Division, in 1940. The 51st Division was stationed with the French on the Maginot Line, thus escaping encirclement, and Dunkirk, but the reprieve was only temporary. The Battalion suffered heavy casualties when the 51st Division was surrounded and forced to surrender on 12th June. Just 31 members of the Battalion managed to escape to Britain, the rest were either killed or captured. My grandfather was captured and spent the rest of the war as a POW. Immediately prior to his capture, his personal weapon was a Boys Anti-tank rifle, and he did not have many good words to say about that weapon.

 

Engraved stone from the veterans walk in Sunderland UK

National Veteran's Walk – Honouring our veterans (nationalveteranswalk.co.uk)

 

Stay safe

Richard

[rpbcps]

I found another photo of Australian troops, I think, in a trench in Tobruk in 1942, one armed with a TSMG with a L drum fitted.

 

 

and another from Tobruk, with the first soldier in the nearest column carrying a TSMG

 

 

and finally one from Tunisia in 1943, of a PIAT team, with a TSMG beside the soldier on the right.

 

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[rpbcps]

A few more photos to add to the post:

 

Sgt Dick Bingley while serving with 11 SAS Battalion C1941:

11 SAS Battalion was formed from No 2 Commando on 21 November 1940.

 

British Paras in Athens 1944:

 

 

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders training in Malaya Nov. 1941, wearing pre war Pith helmets:

 

Italy May 1944:

 

Sgt Major in Syria, July 1941

 

Australian Commando in Pacific theatre, date unknown:

 

Indian troops with a TSMG:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by rpbcps

[pitfighter]

It's interesting seeing that loaded mag in Maj. Barnes Sten. I know that these were carried with the bolt in the secondary "safety notch" - but telling to see his faith in that manner of carry. 2nd picture.

[rpbcps]

A few more photos I have come across of British Paratroopers with TSMGs.

 

 

 

And one shows US soldiers showing a British Bobby a TSMG, from life magazine.

Cocked and magazine in place?

[rpbcps]

Four, possibly posed photos, of an Australian corporal, taken in Tobruk, Libya in Sept. 1941. 

First photos he is loading and 'L' drum into his Thompson and winding the drum.

Then he is sighting the Thompson with the Lyman sight elevated.

And ready for action

 

 

[Countryboy77]

On 3/29/2020 at 3:04 PM, APEXgunparts said:

Now I know how the British carried the BOYS A/T rifle into battle!
My father trained with the Thompson (as well as a whole lot of other firearms) when he was a member of the LDV (before the "Home Guard" was created)

He said the Thompson was a 2 person team, one person was the guns "operator" and the other bloke wore the vest with the drums stored in it (front and back)
He said the vest of drums was very heavy, and not very pleasant to wear.

Richard

My grandpa did this with the drum to.Before he would wind up the drum he would insert it into the thompson and let the bolt forward making sure the 45s out of the path. Once bolt is closed the drum was wound so the bolt only needed to be pulled rearward.I bet somthing like this was going on unless they were Staged photo opps and empty.That was a different generation, I bet they are loaded.

[rpbcps]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:30 PM, rpbcps said:

I found another photo of Australian troops, I think, in a trench in Tobruk in 1942, one armed with a TSMG with a L drum fitted.

 

 

and another from Tobruk, with the first soldier in the nearest column carrying a TSMG

 

 

and finally one from Tunisia in 1943, of a PIAT team, with a TSMG beside the soldier on the right.

 

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

I found the first photo in this post, on another website with an interesting and sad caption:

"Tobruk. Australians standing by in a hot section of the front, 400 yards from the enemy. Many forward posts like this are isolated during the daylight hours (Original caption). This photograph was reproduced in the unit history 'Purple and blue: the history of the 2/10th Battalion' published in 1958. The men were identified in the unit history as, front to rear, as: VX35964 Private (Pte) William John Goodgame', VX36671 Pte Gordon James Watkins and SX1412 Pte Charles George Stening'. All three were promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal during their service. Lance Corporals Goodgame and Watkins were killed in action at Buna, Papua, on 24 December 1942."

We often overlook the stories of the men in these photos, RIP ??

 

Edited March 8, 2025 by rpbcps
Typo

[rpbcps]

Another picture I have not seen before, from Dec. 1944, Royal Welsh Fusiliers on patrol in Burma, with two Model of 1928s visible in the patrol. Found while doing research on Pattern 37 web equipment used for the TSMG mags.

[rpbcps]

Today being ANZAC day, I thought it appropriate to add a few pictures of Australian troops fighting in New Guinea, in 1943.

Australian troops from the 2/3rd Independent Coy, the Battle of Bobdubil, New Guinea, July 1943

Photo taking from a news reel, hence blurring,  Private W. H. Dawson, 2/3rd Independent Coy, in the process of attacking Japanese pillboxes which were holding up the Allied advance at Timbered Knoll, Orodubi. 29 July 1943. Private Dawson was awarded the Military Medal for this action.

One from 1942, an Australian patrol advancing through the jungle of Papua New Guinea during the Kokoda Trail Campaign.

Edited April 25, 2025 by rpbcps
added photo

[rpbcps]

Another photo of men of the 2/3rd Australian Independent Coy. This one taken on Komiatum Ridge, New Guinea in July 1943, as they mount a Vickers machine gun in a gun pit.

The soldier on the left with Thompson, is lieutenant H.L. Egan, KIA on the 21.07.1943. RIP

[rpbcps]

Although the Vickers Gun, dating from the First World War, is centre piece, there are a few Model of 1928's / 28A1s in the photo.

New Zealand 14th Brigades Machine Gun Company, on Vella Lavella Island, South Pacific, Sept./Oct. 1943.

[rpbcps]

A posed photo from a member of our local, 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division, next to a downed German aircraft.

The two Ts in their divisional insignia, represent our two main rivers, the Tyne and the Tees.

[CF45]

I have come across this deactivated M1A1 for sale here in the UK and there are a couple of things about it I'd be interested in people's opinions on.

Firstly, due to the repositioning of the sling it seems to have been owned by the British, but I notice all the photos in this thread are of M1928s. Did the brits get many more M1928s than M1A1s or am I just getting a skewed impression from the photos that happen to be in this thread?

Second, this example has apparently been modified to accept drum magazines. Is that very unusual, either by Brits or in general? Everything I've heard about the M1 model changes suggests the drum was universally disliked so it's an interesting mod. The seller says the modification "may have been done by special forces" which I suspect could be a harmlessly non-committal way of trying to excite buyers rather than a thoroughly researched explanation.

[SP Sarge]

I'd say the most probable explanation is whoever was responsible for making demil modifications decided it would look cooler as a display gun, if it could accept a drum and they subsequently cut the slots. Or a prior owner had them cut in for the same reason. Though not correct for the model, to the casual observer the drum has much more "cool factor" on display rather than the stick mag.

[rpbcps]

CF 45 welcome to the Forum.

The British began buying Model of 1928's in 1940, prior to the U.S. Lend Lease Act, purchasing over 150,000 guns.

When Lend Lease began, US Model of 1928A1's began arriving in the UK and close on 1/2 million of them arrived prior to the M1 and M1A1 production began in 1942.

The first M1's did not even leave the Savage production lines till July of 1942, so I am not sure when the first M1's arrived in the UK. The British forces were eventually issued with M1's and subsequently M1A1's, when they replaced the M1's.

Hence in early wartime photos you see more model of 1928 / 1928A1's than the M1's/ M1A1's photos.

As SP Sarge states above, I'd suspect the drum slots were added well after the weapons military service. 

FYI, already in April 1941, the British armed forces were considering replacement of drum magazines, as they were unsuitable for the armies requirements. Indeed although you can find instructions on loading the drum magazines in the 1940 edition of the British Small Arms Training Pamphlet 21 for the Thompson, there is no reference to the drum in the same pamphlet, revised in 1942.

Can I ask who is selling the deactivation in question, a business or a private seller? I'd ask them for the Provenance, that it is a former SF weapon, sounds like a sales pitch to me.

For the full story, I recommend you buy a copy of 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story' by Tom Davis. It is an excellent well researched book and available on Amazon.co.uk.

[Mk VII]

A number of US police departments reportedly modified them for drums after WW2.  Or somebody else could have ...