Bruce Canfield Posted July 24, 2020 Report Share Posted July 24, 2020 "Buy the gun, not the story." Also., the Model 12 in the ad wasn't made in 1948 and is another example of someone using the woefully inaccurate production date tables that have been floating around for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2020 "Buy the gun, not the story." Also., the Model 12 in the ad wasn't made in 1948 and is another example of someone using the woefully inaccurate production date tables that have been floating around for many years. Hi Bruce...i have your book coming from a seller on ebay. Are you talking about this gun being mfg in 1948?? i dont see any sn in the photos. thx Vin https://www.gunbroker.com/item/874885105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Canfield Posted July 26, 2020 Report Share Posted July 26, 2020 Yes,, the ad copy states the gun was made in 1948 which is incorrect. It is a WWII production gun. As mentioned, there are a lot of flawed Winchester serial number/production date tables floating around that are off by as much as four to eight years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) Yes,, the ad copy states the gun was made in 1948 which is incorrect. It is a WWII production gun. As mentioned, there are a lot of flawed Winchester serial number/production date tables floating around that are off by as much as four to eight years. The seller sent me the sn it is 1161219 and is on the receiver and the barrel extension. There are no us markings on the receiver but there is a flaming bomb on the barrel? Would RIA use a 1948 civi receiver to refurb and install a military barrel then supply it to the gov? Edited July 26, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 26, 2020 Report Share Posted July 26, 2020 That serial number (1161219) is indeed a 1948 production gun. At least that's when the receiver was serialized at Winchester according to the Winchester Polishing Room Serialization records. It looks to me like someone took a civilian receiver and added to it a military barrel, a bayonet adaptor/heat shield, and an RIA buttstock with sling swivel. The bayonet adaptor and heat shield are not the correct type for an original Model 12 trench gun, the mag tube has the extra hole for the take down lever which it should not have, the forearm is not correct (it's a later style forearm)., and it looks like it may have been refinished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) Tom...so this is a Frankenstein someone put together in his garage ? Werent there 6 hole shields on the early war 12s ?? Edited July 26, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Canfield Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 There were definitely a lot of WWII era Model 12 trench guns refurbished in the post-war period and used in Vietnam. There were also purportedly some WWII vintage long-barrel Model 12 training guns converted to trench guns during this period as well but I'm not sure this has been positively confirmed. However, there is absolutely no evidence that any commercial production Model 12s were converted into trench guns (or anything else) under government auspices., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2020 Bruce...i received your book today. Its just what i need for my trench gun search. A wealth of information...well done!! Vin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 I've had the book for a few years as well as other references. The downside to that is I got informed and even dubious guns seem to go for a lot money. I've yet to see more than two......what appeared to be mostly correct, for sale in that time, so as a result of being somewhat educated I'm trench gun-less. They're almost as bad as faked lugers which I've also mostly written off. Best of luck in your search and I'm learning more as you ask more questions, but we may be 30-40 years too late to the party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) ... Werent there 6 hole shields on the early war 12s ??No. All WWII production Model 12 trench guns had heat shields with only 4 rows of cooling holes. The early production WWII Model 97 trench guns did have 6 hole shields. You might find a 6 hole shield on a re-arsenaled Model 12. Edited July 29, 2020 by Tom D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 I've had the book for a few years as well as other references. The downside to that is I got informed and even dubious guns seem to go for a lot money. I've yet to see more than two......what appeared to be mostly correct, for sale in that time, so as a result of being somewhat educated I'm trench gun-less. They're almost as bad as faked lugers which I've also mostly written off. Best of luck in your search and I'm learning more as you ask more questions, but we may be 30-40 years too late to the party!Bruce’s book is excellent and a must have if you are getting into collecting US military shotguns. Too many of these guns, particularly trench guns, are faked. Be patient and you will eventually find an original one. And if you find one and are still unsure about it, ask questions here before you buy to get good information and confirmation that it’s the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 Agree with the above two posts. Im late to the party but its fun looking anyway. The only one i have seen that is for sure not faked is the repro norinco 97 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) This one has potential if you like the 97. The auction has a long way to go and its going crazy already. Btw are the 97 barrels date stamped like the model 12s. Almost every time i see a promising model 12 gun when i ask about the barrel stamp its either no reply or they say the barrel is not stamped at all. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/875316273 Edited July 29, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) This is a nice looking 1200 trench. Of course i asked for additional close up photos of the bayonet mount and didnt get a reply. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868879701 Edited July 29, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Canfield Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 Yes,, the ad copy states the gun was made in 1948 which is incorrect. It is a WWII production gun. As mentioned, there are a lot of flawed Winchester serial number/production date tables floating around that are off by as much as four to eight years. The seller sent me the sn it is 1161219 and is on the receiver and the barrel extension. There are no us markings on the receiver but there is a flaming bomb on the barrel? Would RIA use a 1948 civi receiver to refurb and install a military barrel then supply it to the gov?No, the government would not have used a civilian receiver to produce a trench gun or riot gun. There were plenty of military shotguns left over from WWII so there would have been no reason to do so anyway. PS - Glad you liked the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 WWI Model 1897 trench guns do not have dated barrels. But the WWII Model 97 trench guns do. Winchester started dating barrel around the early 1920s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 One thing that bothers me about the Model 1200 in the link above is the color of the receiver. Model 1200s should have an anodized receiver that is almost black in color. This one looks grey. Either the photos are not very good or it's been refinished. It would be good to see a close up of the markings on the bayonet adaptor of that Model 1200 because there are more than one type of marking on them. From what I have been able to tell, most of the original Model 1200 trench guns have the same type of marking on the adaptors. Most of the loose adaptors I have seen had a different marking on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted July 29, 2020 Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 Markings on my 1200 Color of my 1200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2020 (edited) The seller added a photo of the barrel stamp on the 97. It is 42 and the receiver sn indicates a 43 so that works.Nice gun its going to get up there in price. The 1200 i posted looks ok but without seeing markings on the bayonet mount who knows it could be a Repro. Edited July 30, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) Here is another authentic trench gun. The gun sn indicates 1918 which is good but the hand guard is a WW2 model? The Winchester bayonet looks correct. You cant see any of the markings in the photos. I asked for photos of all the markings and barrel date stamp ( if any). No reply. But yet they slap a 5k price tag on it and expect someone to jump on it right away. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/874354808 Edited July 30, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Canfield Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 Here is another authentic trench gun. The gun sn indicates 1918 which is good but the hand guard is a WW2 model? The Winchester bayonet looks correct. You cant see any of the markings in the photos. I asked for photos of all the markings and barrel date stamp ( if any). No reply. But yet they slap a 5k price tag on it and expect someone to jump on it right away. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/874354808You can't tell much about the gun from the photos provided but the butt stock is clearly incorrect. Look at the configuration of the pistol grip. Also, no sling swivel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 I'm not into trench guns, not even slightly, but this thread has been beyond enlightening. I am amazed at the knowledge displayed here and beyond amazed at the dishonesty of a great many of the sellers. Please keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 30, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) I grew up in New Haven Ct. I was in the Winchester plant many times working on the equipment. My family members worked for Mossberg and Marlin. Its in my dna lol Edited July 30, 2020 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) The Model 1897 in that last link on Gunbroker does have a WWI bayonet adaptor/heat shield. You can barely see the "PATAPPLFOR" mark on the right side of the adaptor just above the sling swivel hole. And the heat shield does have 6 rows of cooling holes which would be correct for a WWI gun. But the sling swivel is missing on the adaptor. Also, as Bruce said, the buttstock is not correct. Edited July 31, 2020 by Tom D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted July 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 I see the 6 hole shield the stamping on the bayonet mount now. I did not notice the sling swivel missing either ugh. The stock for sure caught my eye. No swivel there and weird looking grip area. Some of the original 97 stocks all seem to be cracked up near the receiver connection. This gun is dated 1918 so it might just be a real trench model or a converted riot gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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