Savage 1928 TSMG on gunbroker - Square Magazine Slots on late Savage frames

[katanafred]

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/921743677

Edited December 7, 2022 by katanafred
Request of Board Benefactor

[giantpanda4]

I have never come across these markings. Any idea who stamped them?

Overall - decent looking price on a gun that needs maybe only a few parts updated. 

 

[Got Uzi]

Good thing I'm not flush with cash as this would already be in transfer to me.  Given the market and such, this is a nice looking gun for the money.

[inertord]

1 hour ago, giantpanda4 said:

I have never come across these markings. Any idea who stamped them?

Overall - decent looking price on a gun that needs maybe only a few parts updated. 

 

Rebuilt 25 September, 1943 

3Rd. Battalion 301St. Ordnance Regiment

Edited November 21, 2022 by inertord

[Rimcrew]

What’s up with the barrel?  I don’t recall seeing one with such non-uniform cooling fins…

[brveagle]

Great price on a nice refinished gun. I don't imagine this listing will make it through the day 

[katanafred]

andddd ... it's SOLD!

[anjong-ni]

Well, it needed a new oiler and buffer disc anyway...Phil

[SP Sarge]

I was going to bid on that one, but wanted to ask the seller a question first. By the time I got home from work it was gone.

[mschwabee1]

Would there of been a way around the sales tax? Would of been like 2k for me.

[Got Uzi]

Only way around that would have been contacting the seller direct and trying to buy it offline. Then the seller could have avoided the Gb fees too…which would have taken $1.5-$2.2k out of their pocket. 

[First Sergeant]

Anybody else notice the lower's magazine channel is squared like a WH?

[MrBill]

Yes It sold. I have a 28 Savage refinished replacement barrel that i will be listing on GB I am looking for around 26.5K So avoid sales tax and contact seller.

[Steelflood]

On 11/23/2022 at 5:50 PM, mschwabee1 said:

Would there of been a way around the sales tax? Would of been like 2k for me.

I have a resellers permit for items that go into my stock to sell. So the permit for 2022 and 2023 is on file with ebay, gunbroker, sarco, auction sites etc. Sales tax on a 3000 parts set seems like a lot to me if you're going to resell. I don't cheat...I have a separate ebay account I pay tax on, and I just paid sales tax on all my new shop furnishings.  All my Thompson stuff is in inventory.

In Florida I filed as a sole proprietor online and got the certificate. I found out from my tax guy I can re-register as an LLC even though it's just me and have the legal protections of an LLC.

My tax guy gave me more advice than tax, he advised what my software options are for keeping track of inventory. I'm in for a lot of work as I kept records but they're not organized.

And that's my story about sales tax without evading.

[Got Uzi]

There’s tax evading and then there is the simple fact of why is a private party having to collect sales tax when they are not a retailer? 
 

I’m an 07/02 and I have to keep things separate from my personal stuff and business as well. I don’t charge tax on stuff that I’ve had for years that came out of my personal parts pile, but stuff that comes from a distributor, I charge the tax on and give to the state so they can waste it. 

[TD.]

First Sergeant makes an excellent observation on the mismatched frame of the Savage Thompson that started this thread - square magazine slots. It appears to be a production Savage Arms frame with a late serial number, S-492XX9, with some added markings. Form member inertord offers a great explanation as to the meaning of the added markings.

Those that have my books know I do not focus on the Thompson guns manufactured during World War II for the various Allied Forces except for the overall procurement numbers of the Thompson guns for Great Britain. My focus is on the commercial sales of the WWII guns manufactured during the war, i.e., Savage Commercials and Bridgeport Commercials (1928AC).  I also concentrate on the NAC Thompson guns, some of which were built using WWII manufactured receivers and frames. 

That said, I was under the impression all the World War II manufactured Model of 1928 Thompson guns had rounded magazines slots. This may not be the case. I am not at home with access to my library so I ask forum members to review Frank's, American Thunder III, and Tracie's, The Ultimate Thompson Book, to see if this subject has been previously addressed.

I can say from my very limited picture files on World War II guns, it appears that all AOB 1928 frames have rounded slots. If you have a AOB Model 1928 Thompson, either the US A1 or AC variation, check the magazine slots and report your findings. 

I did find some examples of late Model of 1928  Savage guns with square magazine slots - something I had not noticed until now. I would encourage all forum members with Savage Model of 1928 Thompson guns with serial numbers in the 400,000 and 500,000 range to examine their guns and report their findings.

If I remember correctly, reconbob had an unnumbered frame with square magazine slots we discussed a while back.

Frank started this Forum and David continues the operation for us to learn more about the Thompson gun. Have we discovered something new? Get your guns out boys and girls and lets see what we have!

 

[First Sergeant]

My 334000 range Savage ( which I'm currently out shooting) has rounded slots. I know its below the range TD suggested, but for reference 

[reconbob]

  This is very interesting. I have never seen a M1928A1 Thompson with a square T-slot for the mag like

this gun has. I have never seen a trigger frame with the hand stamped rebuild markings that this one has.

I have never seen a barrel with the variation in fins that this gun has. And what is also interesting is that

the Ordnance drawing for the trigger frame dated December 31, 1941 shows a square-slot trigger frame.

Also shown is the trigger frame TD alluded to - M1928A1 trigger frame with square slot. Frame has no

serial number.

 

[SP Sarge]

After seeing Bob's post I'd be curious to know how many are rounded like 1st Sgt's Savage.

Edited November 27, 2022 by SP Sarge

[bob241]

About 5 years ago, I purchased a 1928A1  trigger frame from Omega Systems, It appeared  NOS, The only problem It had a square magazine slot, and no serial number,  I read on this form that  most members including reconbob  advised it probably  was a Karr, or West Hurley , as no WW2 1928A1  lower was ever mfg with no SN, and a square mag slot,

I no longer own this  item,  I resold  it and purchased  one with a correct  mag slot and a SN .  Now I wonder if what I purchased from Omega was in fact a correct 1928A1 late production unit.

 

 

[Steelflood]

13 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

There’s tax evading and then there is the simple fact of why is a private party having to collect sales tax when they are not a retailer? 
 

I’m an 07/02 and I have to keep things separate from my personal stuff and business as well. I don’t charge tax on stuff that I’ve had for years that came out of my personal parts pile, but stuff that comes from a distributor, I charge the tax on and give to the state so they can waste it. 

Are we talking about avoiding sales tax from a commercial site or a person to person transfer? I took the question literally, how to avoid sales tax on a commercial site.

I've done off commercial site purchases with with someone I met on this board, and as far as I know he is not remitting tax to the state, but I think he probably pays sales tax on his purchases when he gets items from commercial sites. But his arrangement is his concern, not mine. And I'm only concerned with charging sales tax when I sell the stuff I buy from him for resale, as that is the agreement between myself and Florida...and by agreement. So I figure that's the trade off lies. I make tax exempt purchases for items I resell and I 'collect' sales tax when I sell it and remit it to Florida, whether it's me paying the tax or the seller pays the tax. If you bought something from me I wouldn't be like give me some sales tax dude! But in my accounting the price would include the sales tax. It's just numbers on my end. And it's on me to know the applicability of collecting state tax if a site like gunbroker isn't figuring it out for me.

I had a sales tax license before for selling supplements. I don't have extensive buy/sell experience in gun parts, so I'm interested how others do things. I formed a business as a defensive measure.Let's say I wanted to put some elbow grease into original parts and then resell it.  I didn't see any way to break even if I paid sales tax on commercial sites on items I was going to resell.

Regarding evading, I'm not casting that around. I hang my hat in Florida for most of the year but am a California resident. California quizes me at tax time if I bought goods out of state that are used in California and something something something I may owe sales tax. I just threw that out there because there are lots of rules and I personally try to follow whatever they are as it applies to me. It was pointed out to me by my tax man that California is aggressive in getting it's online sales tax dollar.

But I didn't know of any way to avoid the sales tax per the original question if the transaction was done through a commercial site, other than contact the seller and then conduct the transaction off the site. Which I believe violates the ToS of the site which I don't care to lecture anyone about. It does beg the question, do you mean how do I avoid the sales tax on this exact item, or an item like that item. If it is a like item, I suppose you go to a meet of Thompson owners and strike a deal from someone's personal collection.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Steelflood

[Steelflood]

As a former investigator guy, I'm like where's the pictures! Now I want to know too!

8 minutes ago, bob241 said:

About 5 years ago, I purchased a 1928A1  trigger frame from Omega Systems, It appeared  NOS, The only problem It had a square magazine slot, and no serial number,  I read on this form that  most members including reconbob  advised it probably  was a Karr, or West Hurley , as no WW2 1928A1  lower was ever mfg with no SN, and a square mag slot,

I no longer own this  item,  I resold  it and purchased  one with a correct  mag slot and a SN .  Now I wonder if what I purchased from Omega was in fact a correct 1928A1 late production unit.

 

 

 

[TD.]

Katanafred,

I think the sales tax information is great but the real value of this thread for collectors are the square magazine slots on late 1928 model Savage guns. To that end, can you change the title to this thread? I think we should add this statement after the hyphen mark: Square Magazine Slots on late Savage frames.

Unless someone can find information on square magazine slots on the Model of 1928 frames in some publication, I think we have found something very interesting with the late Savage guns. Again, the WWII military guns are not my specialty. That said, this potential discovery is just too good not to report. Prior to this thread, I thought all 1928 frames manufactured during WWII had rounded magazine slots. My opinion has changed. Again, please contribute if you have Savage Thompson with square magazine slots or a late Savage Thompson with rounded slots. This change may not be absolute. I always expect exceptions! 

Forum member dam6 sent me the below photographs revealing square magazine slots on a late numbered Savage frame: S-469727. This frame is on a very early Savage Thompson (27,000 serial number range) with British markings on the receiver nose. A definite war mismatch that was probably imported into the USA, circa 1960s or thereabout. 

We need more examples! Get out your toys. Let's explore this subject fully. And thank you dam6. 

[rpbcps]

On 11/27/2022 at 6:35 PM, TD. said:

First Sergeant makes an excellent observation on the mismatched frame of the Savage Thompson that started this thread - square magazine slots. It appears to be a production Savage Arms frame with a late serial number, S-492XX9, with some added markings. Form member inertord offers a great explanation as to the meaning of the added markings.

Those that have my books know I do not focus on the Thompson guns manufactured during World War II for the various Allied Forces except for the overall procurement numbers of the Thompson guns for Great Britain. My focus is on the commercial sales of the WWII guns manufactured during the war, i.e., Savage Commercials and Bridgeport Commercials (1928AC).  I also concentrate on the NAC Thompson guns, some of which were built using WWII manufactured receivers and frames. 

That said, I was under the impression all the World War II manufactured Model of 1928 Thompson guns had rounded magazines slots. This may not be the case. I am not at home with access to my library so I ask forum members to review Frank's, American Thunder III, and Tracie's, The Ultimate Thompson Book, to see if this subject has been previously addressed.

I can say from my very limited picture files on World War II guns, it appears that all AOB 1928 frames have rounded slots. If you have a AOB Model 1928 Thompson, either the US A1 or AC variation, check the magazine slots and report your findings. 

I did find some examples of late Model of 1928  Savage guns with square magazine slots - something I had not noticed until now. I would encourage all forum members with Savage Model of 1928 Thompson guns with serial numbers in the 400,000 and 500,000 range to examine their guns and report their findings.

If I remember correctly, reconbob had an unnumbered frame with square magazine slots we discussed a while back.

Frank started this Forum and David continues the operation for us to learn more about the Thompson gun. Have we discovered something new? Get your guns out boys and girls and lets see what we have!

 

Had a chance today to dig out my three 1928A1's, all deactivated (dewat) as I live in the UK, one out of three have the square square magzine slots, Savage 541933.

[chipsaunders]

My Savage 487977 has the rounded magazine slots.