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Affordable Shooter


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Hello All, brand new to the forum. After many years of wanting, I'm now in a position to purchase a fully automatic Thompson SMG. Based on my budget, I'm currently only shopping for WH 1928's. A Colt M1921 will most likely be out of range forever :-), a Savage 1928 most likely too. WH seems to be in range but I've read quite a bit about these guns and I'm a bit leery about getting one without a proper inspection. I've read where one should replace a number of parts right away with GI original parts if available. Not sure if that process will cost more than holding out and saving for a Colt or Savage in decent condition. I'll take all thought and opinions. Apologies ahead of time if I'm misusing makes and models. Thanks

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Hello.....Welcome to the board. I would suggest you read the article below on WH guns. See link below:

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=224

I hope this helps and I was once looking so I know how it feels as it can be a little overwhelming. Cheers!

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Welcome.  Around 2016 I was talking to a friend about Thompsons and he expressed his desire to own one but felt he couldn't afford it.  I said, is that your new pickup?  Yes, he said.  What did that cost. I asked.  $67,000.00.  I said, well, if you kept your old pickup, you would probably have enough to buy 2 Thompsons.  You're right--he said.

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Strange Ranger's advise is quite sound. If you can find a West Hurley that has been PK'ed that would also be an option but the prices would likely be quite close.

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So I was in your shoes last year. Had scrapped together enough cash to start looking at WH. Some of the best advise i received from these board members. Buy once, cry once. Save more money until you can afford a 1928 or atleast a usgi m1/a1. You won't regret it. 

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Having been there, done that, the best option is a USGI M1 or M1A1. 1928’s are nice, but for a rock solid, no muss or fuss, an M1/M1A1 is the best option. 
 

A Colt would be nice for a first gun, but unless you get a shooter grade, you won’t wanna take it out much. 

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Welcome.  I enjoy my WH 1928 and there’s tips that can be provided on buying one if that’s what you decide to go with.  I wanted the 1928 style so that’s what I went for since I had a semi M1 and it filled that gap for me.
 

Mine had mostly GI parts (mostly) but the chamber was too tight and had to be cleaned up Dan Block, who did a great job.  It runs great now and I haven’t had issues.  Spare parts are available, but not near as plentiful as they used to be.  Getting them should not break the bank either for run of the mill stuff but it may take more digging.  
 

All of the above opinions are valid and it’s really up to you.  You can find good running WH’s and you can find pieces of junk.  The best way to do it is to be patient and good versions of all types will pop up eventually.  I was not patient and paid a bit for it.

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21 hours ago, mbc230 said:

Hello.....Welcome to the board. I would suggest you read the article below on WH guns. See link below:

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=224

I hope this helps and I was once looking so I know how it feels as it can be a little overwhelming. Cheers!

That was a good read, Mr. Trast was pretty frank about the manufacture and sourcing of the ~3800 guns onto the registry.

I have a WW2 era M1.  It hasn't misfired yet, they are built like tanks.

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1 hour ago, Old Sensei said:

I will chime in.  I would strongly suggest not buying a WH.  I could compose a bad country song about the three years and its travels across the country to finally being fixed.

I hear that, brother, but I had a completely different experience. I bought a WH M1 from the original owner and immediately sent it off to PK. Today, it's absolutely beautiful, runs perfectly, and I have a lot less in it than I would have in a comparable GI piece. I wouldn't sell the WHs short, not as long as we have such talented Thompson Smiths. 

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West Hurley guns can be problematic as folks here have said. I didn't listen and bought a WH28 years ago because it fit my budget at the time. I was finally able to have it sent to Diamond K for an overhaul and it came back a real jewel. That said, I should have listened to the old Thompson hands here, saved a little more and found a WWII gun. I'm very happy with what I have, but I always seem to have to learn the hard way. Be smart, take their advice! Cheers and welcome to the boards. You can't find a more knowledgeable group of people anywhere else.

 

 

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You do realize PK isn’t doing work anymore so that door has closed. 
 

My first Thompson was a WH 1928 but it was an early gun that was machined correctly and it ran well. The WH guns have issues due to bad machining, but also the steel used to make the receivers. If that’s all you can swing, then I don’t look down on you. But if you can swing a little more and get a USGI gun, then do that instead. It’s worth it in the end. By todays prices, you can buy a WH for less and then by the time you are done dumping money into it so it works….guess what….you’ve got USGI money in that gun. 

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Years ago I had a WH 1928 and never had any issues with it.  Sometimes I think the more "gunsmithing" that has gone on over time, the more problems that have been created?  The guns were built as new and sold, yet you never hear about massive returns from back in the 80's taking place, so the implication would be they pretty much all worked when new?  I would tend to look for one that hasn't had the crap shot out of it if you are dead set on a Thompson....which overall is not that great of a gun design as a shooter.  Or if you are handy, buy the worst possible gun at rock bottom price?

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Thank you all for the great advice. I had read the Small Arms article which got me thinking about holding out for a USGI. My M1 Garand is a snap to break down, insert newer parts and re-assemble. Watching a u-tube breakdown of the Thompson is quite different and not in my league. I'll save a bit more and continue the search.

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Affordable Shooter?  That sounds like exactly like me.  About 15 years ago I got a WH '28A1 and sent it to PK before I even fired it.  He did his thing to it and returned it.  I never had an issue with it whatsoever.  But because I am cheap, I got a .22lr conversion for even cheaper shooting.  Again, I sent my '28A1 along with the .22lr kit off to PK to tune it and make sure there would be no issues.  Believe it or not, the ROF of the .22lr kit is slower than running .45 ACP ammo.  The .22lr kit runs very clean.  I can run 1200 to 1500 rounds through it before it needs cleaning.  Instead of using current production BDM .22lr plastic magazines that came with the kit, I had PK adapt '80s era Auto Ordnance .22lr metal magazines with the metal magazine adapter.  PK told me the kit would run forever and never wear out.  This is my funnest .22lr conversion.

 

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Edited by pstidan
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I was in your same position about 7 or 8 years ago.   I personally really wanted a 28 as to me when I think "Thompson" I think 1921/28 vs. M1. (nothing wrong with an M1 though if that floats your boat)

I was tempted by the WH 28 guns as they were much cheaper than a Colt, Savage, or Bridgeport gun.

I ended up sort of compromising with a Savage 1928 "NAC" import Thompson.  Mine is a NAC "suffix" to the original USGI Savage serial # with matching  upper and lower and what appears to be a fully intact British re-import gun pre 68.

The NAC "crate" guns take a price hit as many of the NAC guns are USGI made receivers but are a mix of parts assembled by Numrich Arms Corp post WW2 with questionable finish and quality.  Most of these post WW2 NAC crate  guns have abbreviated serial number NACxxx or xxNAC and the stamping isn't original to the receiver.

To the best of my knowledge most of the full original USGI serial numbered guns with a NAC suffix added are factory made guns that were imported intact pre-68 by Numrich but still got the "NAC" stamp of shame during importation and command a lower pricepoint than a non-NAC 1928 would command.

More info below.

https://smallarmsreview.com/the-nac-thompson-guns-part-1/

https://smallarmsreview.com/the-nac-thompson-guns-part-2/

I personally wouldn't hesitate to purchase a NAC import gun and save a couple thousand dollars because it got NAC stamped after the original Savage or Bridgeport serial.

This is my personal Savage 1928 NAC Thompson.

 

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Edited by jbntex
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This is one of the best places to find information.

I also suggest Frank Iannamico's book.  It's an invaluable source of information on Model 1928s, M1s and M1A1s, including information on post-WWII guns.  I read it before buying my M1A1.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Thunder-Military-Thompson-Machine/dp/0982391870

Tom Davis is also a fantastic source, if you ever decide to wade into Colt territory, but now we're talking "non-affordable".  😁

https://www.amazon.com/Amateurs-Guide-Colts-Thompson-Submachine/dp/1794453814/ref=sr_1_1?crid=21T9PCE7SVRHS&keywords=tom+davis+thompson&qid=1671295178&s=books&sprefix=tom+davis+thompson%2Cstripbooks%2C95&sr=1-1

The key to finding the right gun is patience.  One will come along.  

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On 12/13/2022 at 5:33 PM, mbc230 said:

Hello.....Welcome to the board. I would suggest you read the article below on WH guns. See link below:

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=224

I hope this helps and I was once looking so I know how it feels as it can be a little overwhelming. Cheers!

Excellent information.

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There are guys in this thread who are testifying about how great their WH is.

That's good to hear, but it doesn't really help the OP, does it?   Not unless you sell him YOUR Westie.   

Because Westies were built out of spec and they are well known to be troublesome guns.  If you get one that runs good without gunsmithing, you got really lucky.

I went through the same exact process as the OP.   I had kids heading into college and a big fat mortgage, and the idea of laying out 20+ grand for a gun was a little daunting.

So I bought an unfired WH on gunbroker and got it at a VERY good price.   It was a real bargain.

While it was waiting for transfer, I read up on WHs and found out that they are usually problematic guns.   

I did the research and by the time I factored in the cost of USGI parts and having the typical gunsmithing work done on it, the price wasn't too far from a USGI gun.   AND the waiting list for PK was like 3 years.   

So what I did is have the WH gun transferred to a local class 3 shop, and they sold it to a local collector for me.   

I sold off my Garand collection to fund my USGI Thompson.  I love Garands, but a Thompson is a Thompson.

If I had it to do over right now, I would buy a typical arsenal rebuild WWII M1A1.   Having owned a 28 and the M1A1, I like the M1A1 better.

I actually kind of like the history of the M1 better, and from an engineering standpoint it is a much better gun than the 21/28 models.  Any time you simplify a mechanism and it works even better, you have indisputably improved it.

So that's my advice to the OP:   buy a WWII shooter grade M1 or M1A1, or one of the lesser USGI 1928 models, like a shooter-grade 1928A1 or NAC gun.

Sell off your other stuff to fund it if you need to.  

If you HAVE TO buy a West Hurley, make sure you see it run first.  USGI Thompsons are extremely reliable, you should be able to put 1,000 rounds thru a USGI Thompson without a jam.   So if a West Hurley is said to have been repaired, make sure it runs that good.  

I don't have any collector snobbery towards West Hurleys, my objection to them is the reliability problem.  Shooter grade knock-off guns have an advantage: you don't have to worry about spoiling the collector value by shooting them.   I have a Vector UZI and I shoot thousands and thousands of rounds out of it.   BUT I did have to pay for having it gunsmithed because it was out of spec and the rear plate welds cracked.

Buy now, because someday these guns will be $50k and not $25k.   That day is coming, sure as 10 pennies will buy you a dime.   The economy is bad now, so this is a good time to buy.   But in 2 or 3 years when the stock market starts zooming again, you'll see the usual big price jump on NFA guns.

Don't let the hardcore 1921 guys discourage you from buying an M1 or M1A1, they are a FANTASTIC gun and a superb WWII collectable.  This guy looked pretty happy with his:
 

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Edited by Doug Quaid
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On 12/15/2022 at 3:23 PM, Rudy said:

I have Colt guns a couple of m1 , a savage 28 and a wh28. The westie shoots as reliable as the others.   

That's good, but my question would be:   what percent of WHs run good without being re-machined by an expert gunsmith?

That percentage would indicate your chances of getting a good one.

Based on what I have read over the years, I would bet that less than 10% of Westies run good out of the box.   

WHs were not build from blueprints, the parts were reverse-engineered by small machine shops.  Dimensionally, they are all over the place.   That's why the gunsmiths have to do stuff like add weld metal and then completely re-machine the blish lock slots.  

I would be glad to buy a WH if the price was right and I saw it run good first, but I wouldn't just go buy one off gunbroker and hope for the best.   

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On 12/13/2022 at 5:33 PM, mbc230 said:

Hello.....Welcome to the board. I would suggest you read the article below on WH guns. See link below:

https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=224

I hope this helps and I was once looking so I know how it feels as it can be a little overwhelming. Cheers!

GREAT article.

 

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Jkeef13, I was in your same position about a year ago when I bought my West Hurley. So, I will share the story of my purchase for what it’s worth. I apologize to anyone who may find what follows long winded or boring, so if you're of that mindset then don’t read further lol. But my hope is that it will assist a novice Thompson shopper. The only true way to perpetuate folks getting into the “Thompson Community”, is to encourage and educate. I was going to send this to you jkeef13 as a private message but I decided posting it for all may help some future West Hurley shopper in the future by learning from my first-time owner experience. 

Looking for a West Hurley to settle on can be daunting. Shopping for a Thompson of any kind can be like an ultimate high stakes scavenger hunt, especially when trying to sort the wheat from the chafe. Unlike a used car you can’t look at Kelly Blue Book, meet a dealer, test drive it a few miles, and decide it’s solid. But fortunately for you (and unlike me) you came here first. You will find from among the forum members is a wealth of knowledge and more importantly a wiliness to help.

In comparison to your current shopping exploration, I on the other hand did it backwards. It wasn’t until after I bought my West Hurley that I found these forums. A basic yet informative read for you regarding West Hurley guns would be this article by forum member ”TD” https://smallarmsreview.com/those-west-hurley-thompson-parts/  There are also a host of in depth books on Thompsons authored by multiple active forum members, and I would mention them all but that would need its own forum thread.  The above article is a good start as an expedient “field guide” for Westie shopping. It will at least get you thinking.

When I went shopping I faced that dilemma of how to I bring myself to spend thousands of dollars (the cost of a current sedan) on something I may not be able to lay hands on and see in person, unless willing to buy a plane ticket (and I did do that recently to look at a WW2 era Thompson). Then you ask yourself how many trips and plane tickets can you afford till you find the right one? After all, you’ve decided all your budget can swing is a “Westie”, so you are also painfully aware you can’t also be shelling out cash for multiple long distance shopping trips.

In my situation at that time, I had no support group of like-minded folks (such as these forum members) to bounce ideas off or get advice from. Initially I just searched the internet inventories of the more well-known dealers. But because I wanted to see what I was potentially buying in person, (and really didn’t want to have to fly someplace to see one) I instead I sought out sellers closer to home. I found a class 3 dealer who specialized in old full auto guns about 30 minutes form me. He was more like an antique dealer except he was selling full auto guns.

The dealer had a 1928 West Hurley manufactured in 1980, so I gave him a call and made an appointment to go see it. He also took me out to a range and allowed me to fire it when I came for the appointment. It ran well, looked nice, it had the original drum, stick magazine, factory cardboard box, and paperwork with it. (At the time I wish I knew then what I know now regarding parts). However, I did know it was said in order for West Hurley’s to be reliable they should have certain internals replaced with surplus GI parts. Especially things like buffer pilots, recoil springs, and actuators to name a few.

Even with my background of being prior military (USMC Infantry) and a law enforcement armorer, I had no clue how to field strip a full auto Thompson to inspect the internals. I’d just never had past experience with the weapon platform. By modern standards it’s an odd bird. And even if I did have it field stripped, I didn’t know what to look for. That was a mistake. So, if you are going to look at one in person, (and you don’t know how to field strip), do a little online reading on the topic or watch a few YouTube videos. If you know someone close by to your town that owns a full auto 1928 Thompson, ask if they can walk you through it in person.  Otherwise, you can ask the seller to break it down for you so you can inspect the internal parts. In my case I didn’t know how to break one down and was too embarrassed to ask. When looking it over pay special attention to the receiver when you inspect it. Take a flashlight and look for any hairline cracks in the metal, especially at the rear of the upper receiver.

It would also be a good idea to become familiar with the proof marks and their locations which identify GI parts. Because after you break it down and start looking at the internals, most military parts are either marked with an “S” (or a square version of an “S”), an “AOC” or an “R” (the R I’ve only ever seen on actuators and maybe a bolt). It also can’t hurt to read up on the “wonky” attributes to West Hurley parts, like cast actuators, cast stock slides, 2 part buffer pilots, etc. (you will find those posts here). So, when one is field stripped in front of you, you know what you’re looking at or for. You also very well may find at this stage of the weapon’s life, a past owner may have already replaced things that should have been with GI parts (which is good for you).

In my case I did at least specifically ask the dealer if the internal West Hurley made parts had been replaced with GI parts. He assured me they had, and said the internals were of Savage manufacturer. So, I took a loan and paid the man. Simple as that. We did the ATF paperwork and then I sat back and waited.

While I waited for the paperwork to come back, I decided to research custom wood for Thompsons and made the acquaintance of “Deerslayer”. The wood on my gun was in nice shape, but I wanted to have something a little nicer to dress it up, and his work is the best. He agreed to make me some wood and had said when you get your gun run it a bit. If you have any issues send it out to me and I’ll go over it. Not long after that I was goggle searching Thompson info and stumbled onto the “The American Thompson Association” and then made the acquaintance of “Taliaferro” who guided me to these forums.

Nine months later, the tax stamp came back and I was able to pick up my Westie. Having a range on my property, I took it out to give it a run with some Federal 230gr FMJ. The 30 rnd stick mag ran fine as did the West Hurley era L drum. Then at about the 250 round mark while running the stick mag there were 3 stoppages. It would get off a 3 round burst and there would be a failure to eject, a double feed, etc. A friend was shooting it at the time, and on the 3rd stoppage I took the weapon from him to inspect it. I noticed when pulling the actuator back, instead of that smooth sewing machine like sound, when you pull the actuator back you could hear a “tick, tick, tick, tick”. A similar sound to running a screwdriver down the teeth of a metal hand saw blade. That sound turned out to be the recoil spring sliding against edge of the bolt, which shouldn't be happening.

When I took it apart and removed the lower receiver, I found the recoil spring had failed by kinking hard off to one side. In doing so it pulled the buffer pilot off to the same side, causing the buffer pilot to miss the channel in the bolt it was supposed to slide into during recoil. Instead, the tip of the buffer pilot (being off to the side) was repeatedly slammed into the rearward face of one side of the bolt. The force was such that it actually mushroomed the tip of the buffer pilot and significantly bent it to the point it was unserviceable. Buffer pilots are fairly sturdy, and it only took 3 bursts with the spring failed to do that.

Something else I also noticed during the above “post failure inspection”, was the Blish Lock looked like none of the pictures I had ever seen before of one. This Blish Lock had the “ears” (the protrusions on each side of it which ride in the upper receiver channels) completely ground off.  When I inspected the failed buffer pilot, it had no GI proof mark and was most likely the original West Hurley part, though it did not appear to be a 2-piece pilot.

So, I ordered GI surplus “NOS” (new old stock) replacement parts from RTG parts. The recoil spring, buffer pilot and Blish Lock came to about $80.00 in parts at the time (year 2021). The failed West Hurley made parts have since been donated to forum member “TD” for posterity and possible future instructional or literary use.

The new GI parts then arrived, and I compared them to the failed parts that came with my West Hurley. I found the West Hurley recoil spring was only 9” inches long, where the stock GI spring was 10.5”, and a Wolff performance aftermarket spring I also ordered was 11.5”. A 9” recoil spring is an out of spec worn out spring, it's like a jet airliner low on gas,...eventually it's going to crash.

The GI buffer pilot I ordered form RTG was marked with an “S” while the West Hurley pilot had no proof mark, and the GI pilot was a 1/4" longer than the West Hurley. The rearward side of the West Hurley Pilot (that inserts into the receiver) was also considerably thinner in diameter than the GI pilot, leaving a good bit of “side to side” play when it sat in the pilot hole in the rear of the upper receiver. The GI Blish Lock had ears (protrusions) and was marked with an “S”, while the one the dealer sold me installed in the gun had no ears, and any markings had been ground off along with the ears.

The only part(s) inside the upper receiver I could find indicting Savage manufacture (as the dealer told me) was the actuator and a really crappy looking pitted bolt. So to put it bluntly when the dealer told me all the internal parts were Savage, he was either too lazy to look and verify, didn’t know what he was doing, or he knew the truth and didn’t care. And I am aware he’s sold a lot of Thompsons over the years. You be the judge.

So, I then took Deerslayer up on his offer and sent it off to him for inspection. While he had it, he throated the chamber for reliability, as the barrel was the original West Hurley, and they are known to be a bit too tight. He also added a little bit of metal to the inside of the upper receiver buffer pilot hole, by doing that there would not be as much play or wobble of the pilot during recoil. Even with the correct diameter GI pilot, the hole was a little too large diameter wise. So, you can imagine how sloppy it must have been with the skinnier West Hurley pilot that failed. He also added in the Blish Lock, recoil spring and buffer pilot and sent it back to me in great running condition. No matter when running drums or stick mags now it runs as it should.

I should note my gun does have the typical 2 angle “Westie” Blish Lock channels (you can find posts about that in other threads on here), and I’ve noted no issues detrimental in so far as its effect on the receiver. By the time I bought my gun “PK” was no longer taking guns to have that issue rectified, and I know of no one else who performs such a service, so that ship has sailed for me. It is what it is.

After I got my gun back from Deerslayer I decided I wanted to tweak it a little more in the cosmetic department. Let me preface this by saying, (and this is my personal opinion) that the intrinsic value in a West Hurley is that it’s a registered machine gun. The collector aspect isn’t there adding to value as it is in an all original WW2 gun, or one of the 15,000 originally contracted Colts.

The bluing on my gun as I bought it was very good except for a scratch here and there. The barrel was original, so the rifling was a bit worn (but still had life in it and was quite accurate).  I figured let’s just get everything the way I want it to be for ME. After all, when it’s a Westie…it’s your gun do as you like to make it your own. A good refinish (bluing) job is neither going to add or detract from the value of a Westie, but that’s only my personal belief when it comes to a Westie. I’m sure someone on here may beg to differ. But when it comes to a West Hurley specifically,. It’s YOUR money and Thompson, and only YOU need to be happy with it. Make it your own…just for God’s sake don’t have it cerakote painted to look like the Dukes of Hazzard car.

So, my gun then took a trip down to see “Reconbob” (Philadelphia Ordnance) who lives an hour and a half south of me. Bob removed the worn barrel and installed a new finned one, removed the commercial  ¾” aluminum West Hurley grip mounting bar and replaced with a GI steel ½” one, replaced the alloy West Hurley rear Lyman style sight and base with a GI NOS Lyman sight, added a GI Cutts compensator to replace the West Hurley one (only because I just liked the look cosmetically of the Cutts logo on top and the Thompson bullet logo on the side), and he had the gun hot dip blued for me as well. The decision to replace the grip mounting bar and the barrel directly brought about the decision to hot dip blue the rest of the gun, otherwise the finish of the barrel and the rest of the gun would not have matched, as they did with the original.

Then the Westie was where I wanted it to be as far as functionality and looks. And it sounds like a lot, but it wasn’t a lot of money all things considered, just some down time. But do not under any circumstances let “Joe Podunk” gunsmith get his paws on it to tweak anything for you. If you’re going to get work done, get it from a referral on the forums for a smith who's reputable on Thompsons.

So, when you go Westie shopping and you’re doing it in person… above are some basic things you can look for. Hopefully then you will know by sight if you’re buying one that needs upgrades, or if it’s one like mine that’s been gone over by the past owner and is ready for enjoyment.

In closing I need to give a long overdue thank you to the folks here who have performed work on my gun, and to those who over the past year made me feel at home in the “community” by offering their advice, valuable time, and friendship. They allowed me to learn from them by answering my newbie questions, letting me bounce ideas off them at inopportune times, and also for being my lifeline when making a purchase or seeking parts. Those would be including but not limited to Deerslayer, Reconbob, Got Uzi, dalbert, TD, TSMG28, Sutton Coffman, (Phil A. don’t know Phil’s forum name) and lastly Taliaferro for guiding me here, providing my Thompson armorer training, and being a genuine source of sage advice.

P.S.…..I made a deal to buy a 2nd Thompson today of WW2 era (Frank Iannamico’s book helped me verify that what I was looking at was legit…thanks Frank).  You all gave me the sickness.

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