Winchester M2

[New2brass]

 

For those that do not know me, My name Is Dan Pinto. I am with the Carbine Collectors Club, formerly the Carbine Club. The club has been doing research on the M1 carbine and its variants since 1976. Findings were published in our newsletters and sent to our members. It was a great information exchange for its time.  With the internet things changed, in 2016 the club was brought online and we still exchange information in an ever building knowledge base on M1 carbine and its variants.

Most authors on the subject were club members at one time or another. The most prolific member, contributor and author was my friend Larry Ruth who passed away May 1, 2022.

Where to start?

The website quoted that lets you put in a serial number and spits out a list of what is supposed to be correct if full of errors. It appears that the information was taken from a very well known book, that is known to have errors, omissions, and serial ranges that do not tell the whole story.

I am not bashing the book or website, as the information was used at the time of publishing may have been felt to be correct at the time of printing. What happens when you find the information is a little off? Unfortunately with 8 editions many things were not corrected, and in some cases factual information was removed as not factual.

Something to ponder, The list shows type one stocks from 1000000 - 1114999 and type two stocks starting at 1115000. So did Winchester calculate how many stocks were needed to get to a specific number, shut down the production line and discard the remaining type one stocks and move in the type two stocks so they could get production up and running again? Absolutely not! There was a war going on and 9 companies were working at break neck speeds to get carbines out the door.

Then there is the "first in, last out"  where bins of parts were at assembly stations. The bins are getting low and someone comes by and replenishes the bin with fresh parts. This buries the earlier parts and they may not get to for several thousand or more carbines in the assembly line.

Then there are things like sidetracked parts. These are something that did not gauge properly and needing a tweak of if they can be salvaged. We see this most often with items that are prone to warping from heat treating.

What about transfer of part? One prime contractor was not able to get parts from his subcontractor in time, they would reach out to the Carbine Industry Integration Committee. The CIIC would find who had parts in excess of immediate need and get them to where they were needed. Larry was fantastic in finding the knows transfers, but information in the clubs data sheets we sometimes find bands where these parts were used.

So basically there are often wide overlapping serial number ranges as well as gaps n serial number ranges on just about any given part. Using the presented serial numbers from that book surly has lead to many carbine owners swapping out parts on what may have been an original carbine as it left the factory. 

 

In examining Bob's pictures I have made several observations, which will be shared at a latter time as I have some pressing obligations.

Interested in anyone's input, thoughts, criticisms.

Best, Dan

 

As to hand stamp and over stamp of M2 carbines. You need to separate Inland from Winchester. Both produced the M2 in the 7 million range, as they had their own specific bands of serial numbers. Inland started M2 production in the 6.7 million range, where Winchester was in the 6.4 - 6.6 serial number block and the 7.2 -7.3 million block

Earliest known M2 Inland serial number http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/spotter-report-earliest-m2-serial_topic3824.html

Inland was still fulfilling their M1 contract when M2 production was added. Inland removed the number one from the roll die and all receivers in that time frame were finished without a 1 or 2. In assembly the number would be hand stamped with a 1 or a 2 depending on how the carbine was assembled. When the M1 contract was completed  the number 2 was added to the roll die and we see M2 Inland carbines that were roll stamped as pictured in the post above this one. These roll stamped show up in the Inland 7 million serial number block

Winchester on the other hand made all of their receivers with the M1 marking. When the assembled a carbine with the additional M2 components the 2 would be stamped over the one throughout the M2  production. Several have been reported as not having the 1, however in most cases the can usually be found in the correct lighting. One possibility is the front ring might of been lightly buffed before the 2 was hand stamped.  Another possibility is when the subsequent stamp is applied the disrupted metal obscures most of the previous marking.

For the assigned carbine serial number blocks see: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html

I will point out that number was for contract reasons. The military defined a M2 by the presence of a selector switch regardless of the front ring marking.

Here is Bob's front ring marking, Can you see the one now?

 

Winchester Gun Museum: we would be remiss if we did not acknowledge that the bigger part of that collection was the firearms that were donated by the "Pugsley Collection", The non firearms in that collection being donated to the Mystic Seaport Clock Museum.

M17ap wrote "Back in the mid seventies R J Perry bought Winchesters-military smallarms and Cody got the ever action rifles and shotguns." I would like to hear a little bit more information on this. I have been researching information like this for several years.

I will say that in 1975 that 3 million dollars worth of firearms was donated to the Buffalo Bill Historical Center museum complex which includes the Cody Museum and the McCracken Research Library. The collection included many other items that were not lever action or shotguns. The collection includes many of the M1 carbines and M1 rifles and its variants.

The club has records of some carbines purchased by R.J. Perry Associates dated 1975. These were sold at auction and listed as coming from the "Winchester Museum Collection" The receipt is from Winchester - Western. The receipt has several divisions listed with a box to be checked including Winchester-Western, Olin Research Lab and others. There is no provision for the museum, nor any check marks.  Were these purchased from the museum just from Winchester?

Was R.J. Perry the sole purchaser of the other items from Winchester Gun Museum or Winchester factory? What I do find compelling is that in early 1975 Perry advertised US Carbine Cal 30 M2 issue/exl (not reworked junk) complete with sling and 30 round mags ..  $250. But in late 1977 via Bob's photo of the receipt shows it being sold for $450, a sizable increase for 2 years. Either something happened with the market, or there was something special about the carbine. Absent provenance, we can only speculate.

There was a dealer by the name of Robert Cardone that obtained a crate of 10 Winchester Carbines and offered them for sale in the late 70s. These were band new and had no acceptance markings. Other items such as M1 rifles and M97 trench guns packed to military specs wound up on the market in that time frame as well. These did not have ordnance acceptance marks as well. Did Cardone buy them from Perry, or was he also buying directly from Winchester?

I have observed many Winchester items in like new condition. Some did not have serial numbers. This included special carbines such as the T3. Would these be in the museum, or maybe in the Olin Research lab, or in the back rooms of the factory?

This is what lead to me researching  what was happening at Winchester back when they were moving. Talking to people that either worked at Winchester, or just enthusiasts in the area at the time for any pieces of information I could find. The information are all pieces to the puzzle, which at some point may yield actual proof. But it seems that from accounts that Winchester had items that could have been a defective return or maybe an item with issues that were available to employees or maybe even the general public. This generates more questions than answers.

War production was cancelled immediately after the surrender of Japan. Winchester in the week that followed was given a contract to modify some items. It also seems that M2 carbines were sold to the government in 1946. Were these left overs?

 

 

 

[dalbert]

5 hours ago, New2brass said:

 

Then there is the "first in, last out"  where bins of parts were at assembly stations. The bins are getting low and someone comes by and replenishes the bin with fresh parts. This buries the earlier parts and they may not get to for several thousand or more carbines in the assembly line.

 

 

 

HI Dan,

Super excellent post, and good to see you on here again!

The only criticism I have of your assessment is the use of the "First In, Last Out" terminology.  This is generally accepted in production and inventory accounting as "Last In, First Out" (LIFO), which describes the same inventory policy.   Back during WWII, there were no computer warehouse management systems (WMS) like we use today, such as PkMS, Red Prairie, and Blue Yonder.  It was all paper based.  FIFO and LIFO are policies that Warehouse Management systems use, and they can also be paper based in a production environment or warehouse.  I see the bins of Carbine parts during WWII as more of a one-off practice of convenience, rather than a policy such as LIFO.  This is a technical criticism, and your conclusion about the lingering parts is certainly correct.

Thanks!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Frank Iannamico]

Speaking of the late RJ Perry,

He always seemed to have some cool "stuff" 

 

[BRMCII]

J. Curtis Earl bought the very low serial numbers 1917 Westinghouse BMGs from the Winchester sale. Possibly some other guns. I bought a Colt 1921/8 from him in 1971 or '72 that he'd bought in a lot of guns from Sing Sing Prison. The gun had the early style over stamp forend, but no sling loops on it or the stock. I wrote him back and he offered to sell me two sling loops for $50 each. Hmmmm? It took a while to find out, but I was told by Roger Cox that the the sling loops were same as the Enfield rifle types at .$75 apiece at any gun show. Oh, ok. Good price, that! 

[New2brass]

22 hours ago, dalbert said:

HI Dan,

Super excellent post, and good to see you on here again!

The only criticism I have of your assessment is the use of the "First In, Last Out" terminology.  This is generally accepted in production and inventory accounting as "Last In, First Out" (LIFO), which describes the same inventory policy.   Back during WWII, there were no computer warehouse management systems (WMS) like we use today, such as PkMS, Red Prairie, and Blue Yonder.  It was all paper based.  FIFO and LIFO are policies that Warehouse Management systems use, and they can also be paper based in a production environment or warehouse.  I see the bins of Carbine parts during WWII as more of a one-off practice of convenience, rather than a policy such as LIFO.  This is a technical criticism, and your conclusion about the lingering parts is certainly correct.

Thanks!

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

David, It seems the club for year has used the FILO to describe the situation, Possibly used in War Baby as well. Just imagine in mid 43 there were not enough barrels that production was constantly threatening production shut downs, then a few months later the y were almost over producing barrels that it was the height of production. I have seen pictures of racks of barrels as well as crates stacked up. It is a wonder how long before those bottom crates made it into production.

The theory is also used on the Rock-ola I-cut stocks. It seems that they were used in production way after the oval cut stock became the norm. The theory being that RO was so proficient at woodworking a they made wooden furniture, games and radios in fine wooden cabinets, that they overproduced the stocks early on. Imagine a storage room filled with stocks and they rarely make a dent in getting to the back of the room.  I have another theory, but that is for another day.

[New2brass]

9 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

Speaking of the late RJ Perry,

He always seemed to have some cool "stuff" 

 

Do you have a time frame for that advertisement?

[Frank Iannamico]

Shotgun News 1985-86

[New2brass]

Thank you, here is a Perry advertisement believed to be from 1975.

Interesting prices and items. Note that M2s were offered in both Inland or Winchester

[Bob K]

Dan, did you see my post in the class III forum?