What Have I got Here?

[Martiy1971]

I bought a TSMG from an online auction in Canada, and as a Canadian there is no possible way to own one without  being over 70, or getting is deactivated. So, sorry I had to get mine deactivated. Basically it was always destined to be a wall hanger so I am not worried about collectability etc. It does have some interesting markings, and I am hoping that the TSMG scholars here could help me understand them. AOBC S/N 296101 upper and lower matching.

 

 

Real (or fake) German Proofs on the receiver

 

Further on the receiver

 

Bottom of Rear Butt Stock

 

 

Bottom Front Handguard

 

WK or something like that side of butt stock (edit its actually MR)

 

P on the barrel below handguard

M on one side of front handguard

P on the other side

FJA ? above the magwell

S underneath the rear stock attach point and the oiler.

 

I cant see any markings on the handgrip, but the wood is consistent with the rest, and I cannot see under the grip as the screw is rusted so badly. 

So, what do I have here? A numbers matching fake German capture????

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Martiy1971
edit stock intials

[rodfarva]

Thank you for sharing.  I am here to learn.

[SP Sarge]

This will be a fun thread to watch.  Real waffen stamps or a forgery? Hmmm. Super interesting. If a forgery why?  If a forger was gonna take the time to do all that work, you would think the story would have continued to travel with it to the present. Or for that matter if real, some very interesting history lost. German pick up for testing, lose war, allied bring back lol?

Maybe you could post some overall pictures of the gun as well to show its overall characteristics. 

I would say maybe one of the experts here could probably put together from the characteristics, and serial number range,  what things are right or wrong overall in appearance. Then discern whether or not the gun in general is period correct for that serial number range.. Then if we have anyone here who's very well versed in individual waffen stamps and dates of use, that may lead somewhere.

Edited January 25, 2023 by SP Sarge
Didn't notice initially it was an M1

[SP Sarge]

Check out this old thread from 2012.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by SP Sarge

[TD.]

Hi Martiy1971,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. That is an interesting M1A1 Thompson you have. It is a shame that it had to be deactivated. Given the restrictions for full auto ownership in Canada, I am not surprised. I suspect it is worth more deactivated than as a live gun.  I would guess the markings were added long after World War II was over to add some value and/or desirability to the Thompson. Just a guess on my part. I really don't know. I had forgot about the display Thompson with similar markings shown in a post years ago. 

We do have members from Canada on the Thompson forum. Hopefully, they will reach out to you. I would guess Thompson enthusiasts in Canda are few and far between. And need to stick together! 

Again, welcome to the forum.  

[rpbcps]

I am no expert, but have already done a little research of German WW2 inspection stamps when studying surplus Yugoslavian M53's and Laffete tripods. Many had WW2 German MG42 parts on them.

As for the M1A1, I don't want to 'rain on your parade', but I would be suspect of the markings.  If you look closer, some are marked 'SS' and some marked with code WaA214, which according to one source was the inspection code for Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik, who did not manufacture M1A1's.

You can also purchase these stamps on line: https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/products/8-stempel-miii8.html

My two cents, but as I said, I am no expert.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by rpbcps

[Doug Quaid]

Based on my limited knowledge and unimpressive lack of expertise, the German stamps on your gun look fake to me.   They look like the usual mish-mash of post-war fake stamps.

Gun collecting in general is LOADED to the gills with fake guns and reworked guns.   Faking collector guns has been going on for 60+ years, to the degree that for some collector guns the fakes outnumber the real guns.

https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1973-B28-Typical-Firearms-Forgeries-And-Fakes-And.pdf

You can buy any German proof stamp you want, and the dealers have festooned the collector market with fake-stamped items.   

https://www.waffenamt-shop.com/en/6-stamps-for-german-weapons-period-to-1945-

There is a ton of variation in how the Germans marked guns, but the German stamps themselves are really useful information and they can be looked up pretty easily. 

If this was a Luger with the usual German manufacturing / rework / Weimar stamps on it, there would be no reason to question them, since all Lugers have these markings.   But a Thompson that is festooned with German stamps is REAL FISHY.

My understanding is that the Germans marked captured weapons on the stocks, when they bothered to mark them.   Unless they sent a large wad of guns to a German factory for modification or re-proofing, in which case stamping of metal parts is sometimes encountered.

The Germans marked foreign weapons when they used a large number of those weapons to equip German troops or police.  Otherwise, they mostly didn't bother marking them. 

Your gun has a WaA241 stamp.   This stamp was apparently used at the Mauser k98 rifle factory at Oberndorf, Germany in 1935. 

Your gun also has a WaA63 stamp.  This stamp was apparently used at the German k98 and machinegun factory in Brun, Czechoslovakia.

My understanding is that the SS very rarely marked firearms.   I believe that you may encounter very rarely some SS marked k98 receivers, but only from certain manufacturers. 

So it appears that your M1A1 circled about Europe being stamped with German k98 rifle factory stamps and SS acceptance stamps, including time travel back to 1935.  Or the stamps are fake, as usual.

That's my 2 cents on it.   You might want to post up these pictures in a forum for German WWII firearm collectors, they would probably have more information.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[TSMGguy]

Looks like someone went crazy with the stamps. Taken in their entirety they tell a really unlikely story. The Heers Waffenamt (WaA) was the German Army arms office or bureau. It was the center for research and development of the Weimar Republic and later the Third Reich for Heer (Army) weapons, ammunition and army equipment for the German Reichswehr and later the Wehrmacht. The SS was a distinctly separate organization, with its own channels for small arms and equipment procurement. That's not to say that the SS and Wehrmacht did not procure weapons and equipment from the same manufacturers. They could and did but seeing SS stamps right next to WaA stemples from different inspectors on a captured US weapon is beyond unlikely. There are also what appear to be proof eagles applied to the wood. Proofing was a formal testing and acceptance process. The eagles were normally applied only to metal parts subject to proofing such as barrels, bolts, and receivers.  

Edited January 25, 2023 by TSMGguy

[Martiy1971]

As I mentioned previously whether they are fake or not is of little consequence to me because it is just a wall hanger, but a great conversation piece. Overall the gun appears to be correct and is in decent shape. Here are some more pics of the overall gun but I can take more of specific parts at requests.

is it unusual for one like this to have upper and lower matching? The wood also looks genuine, but again I am no expert on Thomason’s  I’ve mainly owned M1 carbines  

Edited January 25, 2023 by Martiy1971

[Martiy1971]

Apologies for the double pics. Just not the Same using ones phone to reply 

[rpbcps]

13 hours ago, TD. said:

Hi Martiy1971,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. That is an interesting M1A1 Thompson you have. It is a shame that it had to be deactivated. Given the restrictions for full auto ownership in Canada, I am not surprised. I suspect it is worth more deactivated than as a live gun.  I would guess the markings were added long after World War II was over to add some value and/or desirability to the Thompson. Just a guess on my part. I really don't know. I had forgot about the display Thompson with similar markings shown in a post years ago. 

We do have members from Canada on the Thompson forum. Hopefully, they will reach out to you. I would guess Thompson enthusiasts in Canda are few and far between. And need to stick together! 

Again, welcome to the forum.  

Sorry Martiy1971,

I also should have welcomed you to the Forum. 

Like Canada, Thompson Enthusiasts in the UK are like rocking horse poop..

Richard

 

[Martiy1971]

Thank you all for the welcome notes. It’s appreciated. 
 

another question about my particular gun is of the serial number falls in line with WW2 era  TSMG’s

[Motorcar]

It's a beautiful wall hanger, think I would clean the chalk or white paint out of the fake stamps, oil it up, then enjoy it for what it is!

[Varminter]

My M1 is serial # 2230xx and I believe from 1942. Of course they simplified the bolt on the M1A1.

Pic of the bolt might be informative.

 

 

[rpbcps]

Martiy1971, Some info I have gathered over the years which may be of interest to you:

Shortly after its adoption in 1942, the M1 was simplified even more by the substitution of a fixed firing pin on the bolt face rather than the separate hammer used with the M1928A1 and the M1. This change resulted in the adoption of the “Submachine Gun, Caliber .45 M1A1” in October 1942, although it did not see full-scale production until early 1943. 
The total M1A1 production was 539,142 guns by the time it ceased in 1944. In addition, a lot of Savage M1 Models were converted to M1A1 configuration by ordnance depots and arsenals. 

In February 1944, the final production of 4,091 M1A1s was completed for the US Government.

FJA indicates it is a Savage produced M1A1 In 1942, when Savage production was moving from 1928A1’s to M1’s, Colonel Frank J. Atwood (FJA) took over the position of chief inspector at the Rochester Ordnance District of New York. Colonel Atwoods initials, FJA, are found on the majority of the M1 and all the M1A1’s produced by Savage, accompanied with the encircled GEG Stamp of George E. Goll. 

Another subtle difference between the Auto Ordnance Corp Bridgeport produced M1 / M1A1's and those manufactured by Savage is found on the trigger assembly; the selectors on Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport produced Thompsons ire marked, ‘full auto’ on one single line, while on Savage manufactured Thompsons, ‘full auto’ is stamped in two lines.

On the receiver, the Savage produced M1 /M1A1s, the ‘US’ letters of Lend Lease Act ‘US Property’ markings, are stamped on one line, and the word ‘PROPERTY’ on a second line below.  The US Property stamp was marked to be read from the rear of the receiver. Auto-Ordnance manufactured M1A1s, have the ‘US PROPERTY’ roll marked on one line, which is readable from the front of the weapon.  

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by rpbcps
Spelling mistakes corrected

[rpbcps]

From my files, here are some Canadian soldiers armed with M1's , unprotected rear site with the odd M1A1' which may be of interest to you:

 

[rpbcps]

Oh finally, just saw the strap around the barrel and foregrip and it reminded me of the story behind that, which I read a while back. This is a classic case of a penny saving modification, costing pounds to fix.

The modified solid milled fore grip support found on the 1928A1 and M1 was changed to a 3-piece riveted design on the M1A1, which was a failure because the rearmost riveted part required a hole in the body of the grip mount near the front end of the receiver where the grip mount needed its maximum strength. A downward pull on the sling can bend the grip mount downward, away from the barrel. To solve this problem, a strap was fitted clamping the barrel and front end of the forearm together. War time manufacturing sometimes creates an interesting dilemma. The design changes on the M1A1 Grip Mount, in an effort to reduce costs, created a requirement for a separate part to be manufactured to correct an issue that did not previously exist.

[Martiy1971]

7 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Oh finally, just saw the strap around the barrel and foregrip and it reminded me of the story behind that, which I read a while back. This is a classic case of a penny saving modification, costing pounds to fix.

The modified solid milled fore grip support found on the 1928A1 and M1 was changed to a 3-piece riveted design on the M1A1, which was a failure because the rearmost riveted part required a hole in the body of the grip mount near the front end of the receiver where the grip mount needed its maximum strength. A downward pull on the sling can bend the grip mount downward, away from the barrel. To solve this problem, a strap was fitted clamping the barrel and front end of the forearm together. War time manufacturing sometimes creates an interesting dilemma. The design changes on the M1A1 Grip Mount, in an effort to reduce costs, created a requirement for a separate part to be manufactured to correct an issue that did not previously exist.

Can you clarify what you are saying in layman’s terms. I don’t quite follow 

[Martiy1971]

7 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Martiy1971, Some info I have gathered over the years which may be of interest to you:

Shortly after its adoption in 1942, the M1 was simplified even more by the substitution of a fixed firing pin on the bolt face rather than the separate hammer used with the M1928A1 and the M1. This change resulted in the adoption of the “Submachine Gun, Caliber .45 M1A1” in October 1942, although it did not see full-scale production until early 1943. 
The total M1A1 production was 539,142 guns by the time it ceased in 1944. In addition, a lot of Savage M1 Models were converted to M1A1 configuration by ordnance depots and arsenals. 

In February 1944, the final production of 4,091 M1A1s was completed for the US Government.

FJA indicates it is a Savage produced M1A1 In 1942, when Savage production was moving from 1928A1’s to M1’s, Colonel Frank J. Atwood (FJA) took over the position of chief inspector at the Rochester Ordnance District of New York. Colonel Atwoods initials, FJA, are found on the majority of the M1 and all the M1A1’s produced by Savage, accompanied with the encircled GEG Stamp of George E. Goll. 

Another subtle difference between the Auto Ordance Corp Bridgepoert prodiced M1 / M1A1's and those manaufactured by savae s found on the trigger assembly; the selectors on Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport produced Thompsons ire marked, ‘full auto’ on one single line, while on Savage manufactured Thompsons, ‘full auto’ is stamped in two lines.

On the reciever, the Savage produced M1 /M1A1s, the ‘US’ letters of Lend Lease Act ‘US Property’ markings, are stamped on one line, and the word ‘PROPERTY’ on a second line below.  The US Property stamp was marked to be read from the rear of the receiver. Auto-Ordnance manufactured M1A1s, have the ‘US PROPERTY’ roll marked on one line, which is readable from the front of the weapon.  

 

 

Interesting that is a Savage acceptance mark when mine is an AO. Oddly enough nowhere on my gun is roll marked US Property 

[Martiy1971]

Full auto on 2 lines 

 

[Martiy1971]

[Martiy1971]

[Martiy1971]

And as far as values go in Canada the person was right.  I bought this one as fully auto for $2k CDN and deactivated in Canada they sell for $3,500 to $4k. 

[Martiy1971]

Barrel band 

[Doug Quaid]

5 hours ago, Martiy1971 said:

Can you clarify what you are saying in layman’s terms. I don’t quite follow 

The Thompson foregrip mount is a metal bar that projects out from the front of the receiver.

It's usually made from one solid steel bar, but on the M1A1 it is a two-piece assembly that is riveted together.   

The riveted version of the mount wasn't quite strong enough when put into service, so they came up with a fix that could be retrofitted to the guns:  the barrel band.   

The barrel band greatly reduces the stress on the riveted mount assembly.

You have a barrel band on your gun, it's the pipe-clamp-like gizmo at the front of your foregrip.