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Form 4 Inaccurate M1 Weapon Dimensions Letter


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Bought a few transferables last year and they all came back approved today with the exception of 1 m1 thompson that was denied for inaccurate weapon dimensions. Why would they do this? I copied the dimensions from the previous form 4 that was approved in back in 2000. The other thompson I bought with this batch was approved a 1921. The overall length on the previous approved form 4 for the m1 thompson was barrel length of 11" and over all length of 34".

I dont understand what was wrong. Can some one help me out with what I need to do to get this corrected.

Should it have been 32" over all and a 10.5" barrel as it was filed on the last interstate transfer papers filed with the atf? I went off the original approved form 4 dimensions when I submitted it.

Thank you 

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Thy have been requesting overall pictures with dimensions for a few years now to update their records. Has the gun transferred in the last 5-6 years? if not, that is usually all they want. 

I got a letter stating they wanted the pictures, not a disapproval. Is that what you got?

Otherwise, your M1 probably does not have a comp. It could be that the OAL you recorded (34") includes a comp (that is the OAL I use for a 1928 w/comp), and an M1 would be less.

Edited by giantpanda4
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 The ATF wants your form to match their records. A good rule of thumb is to make your description match the most recent  previous transfer. ( no matter what form was used ).  A 10 1/2 inch barrel and 32 inch overall length is standard for an M1,  but I do not know if your gun meets factory specs or if the ATF records are 100% accurate for your M1. 

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My son got one back (December 2022)  on a Thompson that we copied the previous Form 4 information.  The examiner listed a correction to Model-M1928 and the previous form had Model-1928.  Paper Form 4.  It was noted but approved.  I found that interesting.

Edited by Uncle Dudley
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Thanks for the replies guys.

You are correct, giantpanda4. I just received a copy of the letter from the seller. Its not a denial letter it states firearm description varies with there records. They are wanting pictures to update there records. They gave me a response time to do it by or it will be disapproved. 

They also corrected and highlighted the barrel length to 10.5" and oal length to 32"

I guess what happened is back in 2000 when it was approved it had incorrect dimensions and was approved. Then when the seller moved to a new state in 2019 and notified atf. His form that was submitted had the correct dimensions on it. So when I submitted my form 4, I copied the information from the 2000 approved form 4 and should have used the information when he notified atf he was moving states. I wasn't aware when I submitted my form 4 that the dimensions changed from the original form with the tax stamp on it.

I am just hoping this correction process doesn't take another 11 months.

 

 

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It shouldn't kick you to the back of the line Brass. I had them ask for updated info on a form once and after I sent it in what was requested the approval came through not long after. 

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My MK760 had the same issue. The gal called me and said to send her a photo (email) and show measurements. I did and she express mailed me the form back to initial the measurement for overall and barrel length, I sent it back express the same day. She received it the next day, called and approved it that day. Don't remember her name, maybe Gale, but was very nice and said they are confirming barrels and overalls. 

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Brasscatcher,

Why don't you change the title of this thread. There are many valid reasons to bitch and complain at BATF. No need to invent a disapproval that did not happen. I suspect the approval with be forthcoming soon after you make the necessary changes.

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  • Brasscatcher changed the title to Form 4 Inaccurate weapon dimensions letter
47 minutes ago, TD. said:

Brasscatcher,

Why don't you change the title of this thread. There are many valid reasons to bitch and complain at BATF. No need to invent a disapproval that did not happen. I suspect the approval with be forthcoming soon after you make the necessary changes.

Agreed, got it fixed. 

 

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Get the corrected form 4 back to ATF within 2 weeks and they should get the approved Form 4 back to the seller in less than a month. 

The ATF sometimes does some strange/confusing things:

In 2015, I mailed a Form 4 for a C&R Sturmgewehr that was marked MP44 with the serial number 1234U (I changed the numbers for privacy sake) which matched the serial number on previous approved form 4 in 2002.

2 months later, the ATF sent the form 4 back to the seller requesting that he take and sent a picture of the serial number on the gun to the ATF and change the serial number on the form 4 to be 1234U44 which he did.

Seller got the approved form 4 back from the ATF in January 2016 with the following condition that the serial number is 1234

The serial number on the gun reads 1234U/44.

I called the ATF several weeks later to clarify what the serial number should be and they said 1234U.

Edited by maxfaxdude
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I am going to send them the requested pictures this week. 

Question, They sent me the front page of my form 4 back highlited and they crossed out the old dimentions and hand wrote the corect ones in.  Do i have to redo that page or just send it back to them with the requested pictured and return the paperwork they sent me.

 

That is great news on the time frame, It's been a long enough wait already.

Edited by Brasscatcher
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I would redo the page to be safe, put a yellow stocky on it saying, 'requested corrections made', and paper clip the highlight one outlining the corrections they wanted to it.

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Several years ago, the seller's form 4 had the 21AC listed as a 28AC.  

I called ATF, and was told to put the incorrect information on my form 4 application, "...otherwise, it will just complicate things and add six more months to the transfer".

I repeated this back to him, to make certain of what he was saying.  Yes, that was what he said.

I replied, "But, then I'll have a new form 4 with wrong information".  Reply: "Well, you can get it changed after you have the approved form".

I asked, "Will they send me a new form 4 with the correct information?  Reply, "No, they won't do that. But the registry will correct their information".

So, that's how I did it. 

After the transfer approval (over a year later)  I sent a letter explaining all this, and requesting the information update.

Around another year later, I received a one page letter, stating only:

(Quote) "The requested change has been made to the registry".   

Nothing else. No serial number. Nothing to even indicate which item or change was involved.

 

 

 

Edited by mnshooter
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5 hours ago, SP Sarge said:

I would redo the page to be safe, put a yellow stocky on it saying, 'requested corrections made', and paper clip the highlight one outlining the corrections they wanted to it.

That is what I was thinking to do also. If they don't need it then they can dispose of it.  I think is is better to be safe that sorry and wait even longer. 

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On 1/29/2023 at 11:00 AM, Brasscatcher said:

I am going to send them the requested pictures this week. 

Question, They sent me the front page of my form 4 back highlited and they crossed out the old dimentions and hand wrote the corect ones in.  Do i have to redo that page or just send it back to them with the requested pictured and return the paperwork they sent me.

 

That is great news on the time frame, It's been a long enough wait already.

I've done it both ways.  

With the Sturmgewehr transfer we just put a line through the original "wrong" serial number and handwrote the "correct" serial number in the box and initialed next to it.   

But, for other transfers, I've also retyped the form out with the corrected info . 

Both have worked for me and in my experience both are acceptable to the ATF.

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It's interesting how the ATF works. It will not send you a corrected Form 4, instead they send you a correction letter. Then upon subsequent transfer, the Form 4 submission includes the correction letter and the new Form 4 is issued with the correction. 

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You can thank that group of dealers who few years ago decided to make cheap MAC 10s into expensive M60s, M249s etc. by using the serial numbers from the MACs. They transferred them back and forth on paper between dealers changing one spec at a time, length, caliber, model.

After they were caught, ATF started researching information used on the original forms to make sure they matched a new submitted form.  

https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-rodman-3

Summary of the case

Private citizens, whether federal firearms licensees or members of the general public, who are not acting under the authority of the United States or a state, may transfer or possess only machine guns that were registered on or before May 16, 1986. 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o)(2)(A)-(B). In this opinion, we refer to machine guns registered on or before May 16, 1986 as "pre-ban machine guns," and to machine guns registered after May 16, 1986 as "post-ban machine guns."

In order to circumvent the restrictions described, Rodman, along with his codefendants Idan Greenberg, George Clark, Hal Goldstein, James Arnberger, and Lorren Kalish, all of whom were federal firearms licensees, entered into a conspiracy to build, possess, and sell post-ban machine guns that used serial numbers cut from pre-ban machine guns. Clark, who was also licensed to manufacture firearms, would  cut the serial number from an inexpensive registered pre-ban machine gun, and discard the remaining parts of the gun. Clark would then use new parts, often supplied by his codefendants, to construct a new machine gun, and would weld the serial number of the pre-ban machine gun onto the new, post-ban machine gun. The defendants would then sell the new, post-ban machine guns as pre-ban machine guns, in some cases for a significant profit, without telling the buyers of those guns the method by which the machine guns had been made, or that the machine guns offered to the buyers were actually post-ban machine guns.

The defendants registered and transferred these "new" machine guns amongst themselves and others by filling out either a Form 3 or a Form 4 using the serial number, manufacturer, and model of the pre-ban machine guns. These transfer forms were fraudulent. The forms listed the model and manufacture of the pre-ban machine gun even though the machine gun actually sold was a new gun, a different model than the pre-ban gun, and had been manufactured by Clark. Additionally, the forms did not mention that the serial number on the gun being sold had been cut from a pre-ban machine gun and affixed onto the new post-ban machine gun. The ATF approved these transfers because none of the defendants disclosed that they were selling post-ban machine guns using pre-ban machine gun information, and the ATF relied on the false representations made in the transfer forms.

Consistent with the conspiracy, Rodman purchased Clark's machine guns manufactured post-ban but affixed with pre-ban serial numbers. Rodman knew the method by which Clark manufactured the machine guns, but claimed during trial that Clark told him this method was lawful. Clark filed transfer papers with the ATF to transfer 13 machine guns to  Rodman between 2000 and 2008. These new machine guns were transferred to Rodman using the serial number and other information, such as the model name and manufacturer, from the pre-ban machine guns. Rodman sold and filed transfer papers with the ATF for seven of the Clark-made machine guns, again using pre-ban information to sell and transfer post-ban guns.

 

 

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It seems this stuff is not only Form 4s. I helped a friend file a 5320.20 to transport his West Hurley M1 Thompson across state lines. The Form 4 has the model marked as M1WHTHOMPSON. So that's what we put on the 5320.20. He received the approved 5320 back, but in the notes section it was hand written "Model M1A1". No where on the gun is it marked M1A1.... 

So, where did they get that it's an M1A1? What's even more funny, is on the Form 4, it's also marked that it has a 16.5" barrel and OAL of 38", which we transcribed onto the 5320. They didn't mention that! 

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I reviewed the correction letter and paperwork with the seller yesterday and the atf already had everything corected in handwriting for me. They wanted pics of the serial number/model and barrel length and oal lenght with a tape measure. The paperwork was already marked approved just no signature or stamp on it. So i am guessing once they get the requested info they will sign it stamp it and mail it back. I mailed everything back priority mail today so hopfully the turn around will be quick and i can pick it up.

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On 1/31/2023 at 9:12 AM, Frank Iannamico said:

You can thank that group of dealers who few years ago decided to make cheap MAC 10s into expensive M60s, M249s etc. by using the serial numbers from the MACs. They transferred them back and forth on paper between dealers changing one spec at a time, length, caliber, model.

After they were caught, ATF started researching information used on the original forms to make sure they matched a new submitted form.  

https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-rodman-3

Summary of the case

Private citizens, whether federal firearms licensees or members of the general public, who are not acting under the authority of the United States or a state, may transfer or possess only machine guns that were registered on or before May 16, 1986. 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(o)(2)(A)-(B). In this opinion, we refer to machine guns registered on or before May 16, 1986 as "pre-ban machine guns," and to machine guns registered after May 16, 1986 as "post-ban machine guns."

In order to circumvent the restrictions described, Rodman, along with his codefendants Idan Greenberg, George Clark, Hal Goldstein, James Arnberger, and Lorren Kalish, all of whom were federal firearms licensees, entered into a conspiracy to build, possess, and sell post-ban machine guns that used serial numbers cut from pre-ban machine guns. Clark, who was also licensed to manufacture firearms, would  cut the serial number from an inexpensive registered pre-ban machine gun, and discard the remaining parts of the gun. Clark would then use new parts, often supplied by his codefendants, to construct a new machine gun, and would weld the serial number of the pre-ban machine gun onto the new, post-ban machine gun. The defendants would then sell the new, post-ban machine guns as pre-ban machine guns, in some cases for a significant profit, without telling the buyers of those guns the method by which the machine guns had been made, or that the machine guns offered to the buyers were actually post-ban machine guns.

The defendants registered and transferred these "new" machine guns amongst themselves and others by filling out either a Form 3 or a Form 4 using the serial number, manufacturer, and model of the pre-ban machine guns. These transfer forms were fraudulent. The forms listed the model and manufacture of the pre-ban machine gun even though the machine gun actually sold was a new gun, a different model than the pre-ban gun, and had been manufactured by Clark. Additionally, the forms did not mention that the serial number on the gun being sold had been cut from a pre-ban machine gun and affixed onto the new post-ban machine gun. The ATF approved these transfers because none of the defendants disclosed that they were selling post-ban machine guns using pre-ban machine gun information, and the ATF relied on the false representations made in the transfer forms.

Consistent with the conspiracy, Rodman purchased Clark's machine guns manufactured post-ban but affixed with pre-ban serial numbers. Rodman knew the method by which Clark manufactured the machine guns, but claimed during trial that Clark told him this method was lawful. Clark filed transfer papers with the ATF to transfer 13 machine guns to  Rodman between 2000 and 2008. These new machine guns were transferred to Rodman using the serial number and other information, such as the model name and manufacturer, from the pre-ban machine guns. Rodman sold and filed transfer papers with the ATF for seven of the Clark-made machine guns, again using pre-ban information to sell and transfer post-ban guns.

 

 

Frank -- do you know how many machineguns were involved and are any of those guns still in circulation or were they all confiscated by the ATF?

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I don't know if anyone knows the number?  I do know a guy that had his gun confiscated.  I asked him why he bought it, and it was sold at about half market value at the time.  He knew what it was, shot it a lot for years, and then the letter came and he surrendered it after stripping it.  At the time the gun he had was around 5K, but macs were 6-800 or less.   Of the guns in this specific case it's likely they got all the Mac numbered stuff because it's easy.  These are not the only guns out there.....there are others where the carpet don't match the drapes, but you'd have to be fairly knowledgeable to pick them out of a crowd and the volume was much lower.  

 

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It says in this piece "over 30" As I recall most if not all were Texas MACs, I think they would be easily tracked down and seized; a paper and tangible evidence trail.

Sadly, they took around 30 transferable MACs out of circulation.

Gun Dealers Sentenced To Prison For Manufacture, Possession And Sale Of Illegal Machine Guns

 
 

PHOENIX, Ariz. – On June 20, 2013, Randolph Benjamin Rodman, 60, of Crownsville, Md., and Idan C. Greenberg, 59, of Glendale, Ariz., both licensed gun dealers, were sentenced by U.S. District Chief Judge Roslyn O. Silver to 121 months and 33 months in prison, respectively. On Dec. 20, 2012, Rodman was found guilty by a federal jury of 22 charges including conspiracy; illegal possession of a machine gun; obliterating the serial numbers of firearms; the manufacturing, possession, receipt and transfer of machine guns in violation of the National Firearms Act (NFA); and making false entries on applications and records. Greenberg was found guilty by the same federal jury of four charges involving conspiracy; illegal possession of a machine gun; receipt and possession of a firearm transferred in violation of the NFA; and receipt and possession of a firearm made in violation of the NFA.

“Enforcement of gun laws, particularly the regulation of machine guns, is essential to public safety. The defendants’ convictions and sentences demonstrate our commitment to prosecute those who violate gun laws, including licensed gun dealers,” said U.S. Attorney, John S. Leonardo.

"This was a very challenging and complicated investigation involving machine guns (NFA weapons) and fraud. These Federal Firearms Licensees violated the public’s trust and defrauded countless customers of their NFA weapon purchases. I hope their lengthy sentences serve notice to those that might consider committing the same criminal acts," stated ATF Special Agent in Charge, Thomas Atteberry.

Between Sept. 22, 1993, and continuing through April 8, 2009, Rodman and Greenberg conspired with other persons to defraud the United States in its regulations of machine guns, including the 1986 machine gun ban.  In order to circumvent the machine gun regulations, the defendants had the serial numbers from over 30 inexpensive, registered machine guns cut-off and welded onto completely different and more expensive models of machine guns that were illegally manufactured.  The defendants would then transfer or sell the newly manufactured illegal machine guns by falsely utilizing the registration of the original machine gun. 

The investigation in this case was conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.  The prosecution was handled by Kathy J. Lemke, Assistant U.S. Attorney, and James P. Vann, Special Assistant U.S. Attorney, District of Arizona, Phoenix.

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5 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

It says in this piece "over 30" As I recall most if not all were Texas MACs, I think they would be easily tracked down and seized; a paper and tangible evidence trail.

Sadly, they took around 30 transferable MACs out of circulation.

Gun Dealers Sentenced To Prison For Manufacture, Possession And Sale Of Illegal Machine Guns

 
 

PHOENIX, Ariz. – On June 20, 2013, Randolph Benjamin Rodman, 60, of Crownsville, Md., and Idan C. Greenberg, 59, of Glendale, Ariz., both licensed gun dealers, were sentenced by U.S. District Chief Judge Roslyn O. Silver to 121 months and 33 months in prison, respectively. On Dec. 20, 2012, Rodman was found guilty by a federal jury of 22 charges including conspiracy; illegal possession of a machine gun; obliterating the serial numbers of firearms; the manufacturing, possession, receipt and transfer of machine guns in violation of the National Firearms Act (NFA); and making false entries on applications and records. Greenberg was found guilty by the same federal jury of four charges involving conspiracy; illegal possession of a machine gun; receipt and possession of a firearm transferred in violation of the NFA; and receipt and possession of a firearm made in violation of the NFA.

“Enforcement of gun laws, particularly the regulation of machine guns, is essential to public safety. The defendants’ convictions and sentences demonstrate our commitment to prosecute those who violate gun laws, including licensed gun dealers,” said U.S. Attorney, John S. Leonardo.

"This was a very challenging and complicated investigation involving machine guns (NFA weapons) and fraud. These Federal Firearms Licensees violated the public’s trust and defrauded countless customers of their NFA weapon purchases. I hope their lengthy sentences serve notice to those that might consider committing the same criminal acts," stated ATF Special Agent in Charge, Thomas Atteberry.

Between Sept. 22, 1993, and continuing through April 8, 2009, Rodman and Greenberg conspired with other persons to defraud the United States in its regulations of machine guns, including the 1986 machine gun ban.  In order to circumvent the machine gun regulations, the defendants had the serial numbers from over 30 inexpensive, registered machine guns cut-off and welded onto completely different and more expensive models of machine guns that were illegally manufactured.  The defendants would then transfer or sell the newly manufactured illegal machine guns by falsely utilizing the registration of the original machine gun. 

The investigation in this case was conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.  The prosecution was handled by Kathy J. Lemke, Assistant U.S. Attorney, and James P. Vann, Special Assistant U.S. Attorney, District of Arizona, Phoenix.

Frank -- Thank you for the info!

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  • 1 month later...

It has been almost 2 months since I sent them the requested pictures about the length discrepancy on my m1 and nothing yet. How long should this take. It has been 13 months total as of now. Just wondering if I should place a call to find out what is going on or just patiently wait. I sent them all the requested info via priority mail with delivery confirmation.

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  • dalbert changed the title to Form 4 Inaccurate M1 Weapon Dimensions Letter

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