Thompson machine gun Model 1928 Receiver

[sinusbrady]

• I am helping a widow in the disposition of gun parts her husband had collected. Never touched a machine gun. So I know nothing about them. I have a receiver; I think is a display receiver. It is steel, looks unused.  It has been taped to accept a barrel

I have it listed on Gun Broker and I am getting questions if it is a working auto receiver. I was told no but now I am not sure.

Any thoughts, ideas, or advise will be appreciated.

Tom

[TennesseeTaylor95]

 I was the one asking you what material the 1921/1928 receiver was made of, which is the one I would be concerned with posessing. 

[sinusbrady]

1 hour ago, TennesseeTaylor95 said:

 I was the one asking you what material the 1921/1928 receiver was made of, which is the one I would be concerned with posessing. 

It is made of steel.   Magnets stick to it,  Did you send a Gun Boker question? Were you using a different name?

[TennesseeTaylor95]

Sinusbrady, I sent you a question via the "Ask the seller a question" button on GB. My account name there is different from my user name here but they are similar.

If I were in your shoes, I'd pull the 1928 TSMG display receiver listing (if it is still possible to do) until you have a more solid assurance from experts/ legal representation that can assure you that it is just a display receiver under federal law and possessing or selling it can't get you in any trouble. The fact that the bolt pocket area is already mostly milled out would lead me to believe that this is not an 80%/ display receiver anymore (although it may have started as one) and would fall closer to the definition of being more of a 100%/ functional receiver. However, the M1/M1A1 display receiver you also have listed doesn't have any significant bolt pocket machining done and looks more like the typical TSMG 80%/ display receivers currently on the market, so I wouldn't be worried about that one getting you in any trouble.

I might be a bit cautious on this topic but I just don't want you to get in any trouble over the 1928 TSMG receiver as I don't think that the potential gain of selling it is worth the potential risk of federal gun charges if it is deemed an illegal, unregistered MG. Worst case is you could destroy it to current ATF requirements and sell the parts like the demilled TSMG receiver sets seen for sale at Apex Gun Parts. Just my 2 cents though so take it as you want.

Edited February 3, 2023 by TennesseeTaylor95
Information added

[TD.]

sinusbrady,

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. No one is going to care that you no nothing about machine guns. Period.

It appears to me you have a machine gun receiver. If so, I have no idea about the legality. What gives me pause in the serial number. That serial number meant something to someone. Based only on the serial number, it appears this could possibly be what we refer to in the machine gun world as a registered machine gun (receiver). If so, and the receiver still remains with the wife or executor of the husband's estate (very important), it could be worth a lot of money. If not, it is probably contraband (worthless and illegal) and needs to be surrendered to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tax, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The National Firearms Act (NFA) Branch of the BATFE can tell the spouse and/or executor about the possible registration status. Contact information for the NFA Branch is available on the Internet. Before the spouse or executor makes the call, I would have the spouse search for any records that may pertain to this receiver. The answer to the registration question may be in her home. I suggest an immediate search. Yesterday would be a good time to start!

In the interim, I would remove this listing from gunbroker.com until the registration or operational status of this piece of steel has been determined. Simply stated, you are playing with fire. I suggest getting these questions resolved as quickly as possible. 

Please return and let us know what happens. 

[sinusbrady]

6 hours ago, TennesseeTaylor95 said:

Sinusbrady, I sent you a question via the "Ask the seller a question" button on GB. My account name there is different from my user name here but they are similar.

If I were in your shoes, I'd pull the 1928 TSMG display receiver listing (if it is still possible to do) until you have a more solid assurance from experts/ legal representation that can assure you that it is just a display receiver under federal law and possessing or selling it can't get you in any trouble. The fact that the bolt pocket area is already mostly milled out would lead me to believe that this is not an 80%/ display receiver anymore (although it may have started as one) and would fall closer to the definition of being more of a 100%/ functional receiver. However, the M1/M1A1 display receiver you also have listed doesn't have any significant bolt pocket machining done and looks more like the typical TSMG 80%/ display receivers currently on the market, so I wouldn't be worried about that one getting you in any trouble.

I might be a bit cautious on this topic but I just don't want you to get in any trouble over the 1928 TSMG receiver as I don't think that the potential gain of selling it is worth the potential risk of federal gun charges if it is deemed an illegal, unregistered MG. Worst case is you could destroy it to current ATF requirements and sell the parts like the demilled TSMG receiver sets seen for sale at Apex Gun Parts. Just my 2 cents though so take it as you want.

I really appreciate the time and effort you put in advising me on this subject. I will take this to another gunsmith and get an opinion today.

[rodfarva]

Sinusbrady, you'd be hard pressed to find any gunsmith that is as knowledgeable on the subject as TD is, but I wish you good luck

[TennesseeTaylor95]

Sinusbrady, I'm just a novice here that wants the best you and everyone else around here. It's hard to have a good time if the law is after you Haha. TD has very solid advice here and is definitely an expert on the subject compared to my ramblings, so I'd definitely take his info over mine, especially the "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" part. TD also brings up a very good point about the unique SN and that it might be an important detail that could shed some light on whether the gun could possibly be registered or not. Personally, I'd first get in touch with a lawyer that specializes in firearms to help you and the widow through this endeavor. The lawyer could assist you guys in inquiring the ATF on the registration status of the receiver if the widow is unable to do that herself as well as offer other legal council on the matter if it does come back as being a registered MG. It won't be cheap to have legal representation, but it would be the safest way to go about it if you can afford it. Do you know anything about the late previous owner? Did he happen to be a firearms dealer or own any other registered MGs? 

 

[Got Uzi]

I have worked on and built several Thompson’s and if that receiver is in fact steel, and is cut wide enough that an unmodified bolt will drop in and slide back and forth…..then congrats my friend-you are holding a felony.
 

No offense meant in this next statement but you better take it to heart-75-85% of the “gunsmiths” out there these days have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to Class III or NFA. Hell most gun shops have no clue other than suppressors. Walking it around and asking more and more people is a good way to get a talking to by people of those three letter agencies and then you are in a world of hurt. 
 

That’s my $0.02

[Motorcar]

I am confused by the photographs provided by the post, are we looking at two different receivers here? One is solid with no internal machine work and the other appears complete with actuator slot and proper inside cut out. Edit; just looked at the "other items for sale" in the listing and see there are two distinctly different receivers for sale. The milled one seems to have seen wear on surfaces, as if it has been run. There are also bolts and a barrel for sale.

If that's the case, the solid one poses no risk to anyone except for possibly blunt force trauma.

The milled one as TD and others have said might be a big problem. It needs to be checked on right away with the NFA registry by serial number, and the Gunbroker ad removed. Years ago I knew a super good guy that was an ATF field agent (now retired) that would check the NFA registry when people would find things in grandpa's foot locker. He didn't send an assault team to their home, just checked and then advised the status of the serial number in the system. I suggest you do the same, find out pronto.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Motorcar

[BRMCII]

Colt receiver is clearly sufficiently machined to be considered an MG. Whether the serial is bogus or not will need to be determined.

The M1 is still a block of steel and it isn't even evident if the barrel hole is drilled, etc, so as noted above, it is not a problem.

If ATF/NFA has the "Colt" receiver serial number in the NFRTR, meaning the NFA registry, information about that serial number is "confidential" and will ONLY be revealed to the person identified as the current registrant of record, law enforcement, or a person with legal authority to act for the registrant. The receiver is NOT Colt made, and as a reproduction, it has limited value as a registered receiver compared to a vintage, factory Colt receiver, so this needs to be balanced against the cost of determining if it is legally registered. 
IF the deceased is the current registered owner of the receiver, then the executor or family must find the ATF registration document amongst his belongings confirming him as the registrant. Then the normal protocols can proceed with the sale of the part. Absent a current registration document, ATF will NOT tell you anything about the receiver and the executor will have to retain a lawyer to work with ATF to determine if: the serial is in the registry; the registrant of that serial number is the deceased. This is not easy but ATF will work with legitimate, authorized individuals. It cannot be done by phone and it will take a long time. There are many experienced collectors and dealers attending these boards who have the knowledge to advise with such situations. If you wish to talk about options, etc, call me at 802-226-7204. Bob Naess, BRMCII FWIW
 

[sinusbrady]

20 hours ago, TD. said:

sinusbrady,

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. No one is going to care that you no nothing about machine guns. Period.

It appears to me you have a machine gun receiver. If so, I have no idea about the legality. What gives me pause in the serial number. That serial number meant something to someone. Based only on the serial number, it appears this could possibly be what we refer to in the machine gun world as a registered machine gun (receiver). If so, and the receiver still remains with the wife or executor of the husband's estate (very important), it could be worth a lot of money. If not, it is probably contraband (worthless and illegal) and needs to be surrendered to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tax, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The National Firearms Act (NFA) Branch of the BATFE can tell the spouse and/or executor about the possible registration status. Contact information for the NFA Branch is available on the Internet. Before the spouse or executor makes the call, I would have the spouse search for any records that may pertain to this receiver. The answer to the registration question may be in her home. I suggest an immediate search. Yesterday would be a good time to start!

In the interim, I would remove this listing from gunbroker.com until the registration or operational status of this piece of steel has been determined. Simply stated, you are playing with fire. I suggest getting these questions resolved as quickly as possible. 

Please return and let us know what happens. 

I have done what you have suggested and removed the receiver from Gun Broker.  The gunsmith is off until Sunday. I'll get his opinion on Sunday. The husband was an FFL. When he passed the ATF came to the house and took his ledger. The widow thought her husband was a club member.  So I agreed to help.  Turns out he was a member of a different club. The ATF would not talk to me because I wasn't the owner. She has sent letters and emails and called but no response from the ATF. 

Any opinions on me walking into an ATF office and asking them?  Are their records computerized?

Thanks for taking the time and advising me.   Tom

[Motorcar]

As the above BRMCll noted there is a legal process. The agent I knew would as a courtesy look it up and see if anything came back on it. He wouldn't divulge any information about ownership only if it was in the system, then it was up to the owner to continue the process as explained. I don't know how many agents out there today would be that nice about it. You can proceed and do the leg work to see it's good, or run a torch through it and be done.

Unless your gunsmith is an NFA man, he won't have a valuable opinion on it. I have had Smiths run the other way just because I presented a perfectly legal MG part separate from any receiver.

[Got Uzi]

I don’t understand why you keep saying you want to take it to another gunsmith when guys who do this for a living have given you the information you seek, yet you seem to want to go it alone and prove them/us wrong. 
 

Said it once and I’ll say it again, if you can drop a bolt body in and it moves freely back and forth then you have a machine gun receiver. If you have that and you aren’t the legal owner then you don’t need to be taking it ANYWHERE as you are committing a felony by having it in your custody. Even if it’s a legal and registered transferable receiver, which we know it’s not an original Colt, you CAN NOT be walking around with it as you are NOT the owner of record. So again, DONT DO IT! An FFL is bound to report illegal firearms or machine guns and well, if you presented that receiver to me and given the story you have told here, I’d give you the same advice-you can’t have it, your are committed a felony by having it, and take it right back to the widow or you’d be reported for illegally having it in your custody. 
 

Machine guns and other NFA items aren’t like helping out your buddy by selling off his M1 Garand or Remington 700 collections. This is a different world all together. Ignorance of the law won’t save you if you were to get caught.  

[sinusbrady]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I took it to a gun shop. The guy is an FFL but not a Class 3 license holder.  Shooters World rents machine guns and the gunsmith there is familiar with the Thompson. My plan was to ask him. 

After reading your comments I think I will call the ATF in Orlando make an appointment and bring it in. They will either confiscate it or let me keep it.

I did take it off of the G B sight.

Thanks again.

[StrangeRanger]

ATF will not "let you keep it." You cannot in any way legally be in possession of it.

 

[Doug Quaid]

Some of the posters are jumping the gun a little.  (pun intended)

Before you take that stuff to the ATF, read this information:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/So-you-found-an-MG-in-the-attic--/17-322347/

If this receiver was properly registered with ATF, then it would be legal to own and sell, and could be worth a lot of money.

The problem is, ATF won't tell you.  You have to figure it out on your own, by hunting around for the paperwork.

That being said, THE PENALTIES FOR BREAKING GUN LAWS ARE SEVERE.  The shortest sentence I have seen in the news for possessing an unregistered MG was 30 months in jail.


 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[Doug Quaid]

I think that a lot of gun collectors don't realize how little their wives and children know about guns.   

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245749/Officers-stunned-woman-drops-40-000-WWII-German-rifle-destroyed-police-buy-program.html

Forgetting about machine guns for a second, one thing that happens a lot when a gun collector dies is his family taking valuable guns to a gun shop and getting ripped off.  A guy I work with told me that when his father-in-law died, he took an armload of his "fancy shotguns" to the local gun shop to sell and got $500.  He said that the shotguns had "fancy wood stocks" on them.  He said there were about "9 or 10" of them. 

One of the things that bugs me about gun collecting is the way that everyone has bought up all the spare parts.  There used to be 527 M1A1 bolts in a crate at Numrich, but now those 527 bolts are dispersed to 483 collectors all over the USA, sitting in desk drawers and storage boxes.   When the collectors die off, you know their wives and children are going to throw those bolts in the trash.   A woman who would bring an Stg 44 to a $25 gun buy-back is also a woman who would throw out her husbands "greasy old gun stuff."

I made an instruction manual for my family that explains exactly what to do with all the bank accounts, insurance policies, guns, etc.  I told my wife and kids that if I ever kick the bucket, just look in there and follow the directions.  Of course there is nothing in the book that would be useful to a thief or hacker.  

Edited February 4, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[Got Uzi]

I’m out as obviously I don’t know a damn thing about this process. Good luck and hope you don’t end up in jail. 

[ron_brock]

You are doing the widow, a disservice by not educating yourself which it seems you were doing by coming here.  If you two can find the registration paperwork she could likely transfer and sell it for somewhere north of $10,000.  If it’s not registered it’s destined to be destroyed.  
 

walking into ATF will get it destroyed regardless of if it’s registered because you’re not the owner and you’re in possession.  They won’t look it up and hand it back to you.    There’s far more knowledge on this board about NFA than anywhere else in the world, including gunsmiths and machine gun rental places.  

Ron 

[damifino]

So much excellent advice. Obviously, get an attorney that knows NFA. They will help insulate you from the process. Even if you have to destroy it (saw or torch cut) there will still be some value in the pieces.

[TD.]

sinusbrady,

You are not understanding what is happening. Forget going to the ATF on Monday. Leave that piece of steel with a serial number in the location where it was found. i am assuming it was found in the house with the dead guy's wife. Only the surviving spouse and/or executor of a will, if any, can be in possession or control of this piece of steel. Period. Do not touch it. Do not take it anywhere. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. 

After searching the home and/or offices of the dead guy for any paperwork related to this piece of steel and finding nothing, do the following:

Hire an attorney who is knowledgeable about National Firearms Act (NFA) matters. If this is not an option (but it is the best option), then do the following:

Have the spouse (or you for her but in her name) write a letter to the NFA Branch of the ATF setting forth the circumstances of what she has found in her deceased husband's firearm possessions. If the dead guys will is being probated, include documentation regarding the appointment of an executor. If she is not the executor, then the executor needs to take possession of this piece of steel and write this letter. If no probate, include a copy of the will showing her as a beneficiary (I am assuming this as fact) and the death certificate of the dead guy showing his name. I would also include one picture of the left side of the receiver showing the serial number. Ask the NFA Branch for guidance in legally transferring this piece of steel to a new owner and/or legally disposing of it. This will get a conversation started with the proper authority and the person who can possess this piece of steel. 

If no will, then hire an attorney because I doubt the spouse (even with your help) will be able to convince the NFA Branch she is the sole lawful heir to her husband's possessions as per state law. 

Again, don't you touch this piece of steel again! Machine gun ownership in the USA is a privilege that requires a lot of knowledge about possession. Stay away from this piece of steel. It will only lead to complications if this piece of steel happens to be legal and may get you in trouble, legal or not. I know you think this entire issue can be resolved in a few minutes by just taking with the right people. It can't. But as long as a person with proper authority maintains control of this piece of steel, it will all be sorted out in due time. Just so you know, this is not the first time something like this has happened. Start the process to resolve this matter. 

Good luck!   

Just so you know, advice on the Internet is worth what you are paying for it. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by TD.

[sinusbrady]

Thank you I will follow your advise. Do you have the time to answer some questions?  It is obvious I am in over my head but I would like to understand a little more.

Is the mere possession of the auto receiver a felony without a class 3 license even if the there are no other parts? What about the trigger group with sear if there is a switch to auto and single? What I am trying to understand is what makes a machine gun is it the receiver, the sear assembly or a combination of both. I would think so. Is the sear assembly different in a semiauto and auto? Are they interchangeable? Is that why the receiver is so restricted. Are there any restrictions on the trigger/sear combinations?

Thanks for the advise.  It goes back to the widow Monday.  I really appreciate the time you have given me.

Tom   

[TSMGguy]

Only the receiver is a class III item. All of the other parts, once removed, are just parts, not subject to the NFA.

[Motorcar]

34 minutes ago, sinusbrady said:

Is the mere possession of the auto receiver a felony without a class 3 license even if the there are no other parts?

In the simplest terms, a class 3 licensee cannot even have it without transfer paperwork, only the name, estate, trust etc. on the paperwork can possess the receiver, if it does in fact appear in the photos that it will accept the bolt and misc. parts. (there are things such as manufacturers, gunsmiths etc. that may have NFA items for repair, but lets keep it as simple as possible.)

You may be confusing "Class 3 license" with "ownership", the two are not the same. An FFL may have different classes of license to perform different tasks within the context of the law. If the widow's late husband owned an NFA item in his name only it would be on a "Form 4", then he may also posses an FFL to say, collect old Colts, the two have nothing to do with each other, in simplest terms.

As others have said, if it is in fact an NFA or non registered MG, you cannot possess it. It must be "papered" to transfer it or destroyed.