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Question for the range officers


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I was shooting at the local indoor range the other day, and I had a failure to feed properly. Turns out it was a bad magazine, but as I stood there with a blowback operated machine gun in my hands, I wondered about the proper sequence to make the weapon safe, clear the mag and the partially chambered round, and finally make sure the chamber was clear and there was nothing in the barrel. 
From the experts, what is the proper sequence?
Thanks,
Mark

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In a setting like that:

•Keep it pointed down range

•Lock the bolt to the rear

•Finger off the trigger

•Safety on

•Remove the magazine

•Check the chamber/remove round if needed

•Insert new magazine

•Take off safety

•Align your sights 

•Engage the target


Now if you were in a run and gun match:

•Keep it pointed in a safe direction

•Finger off the trigger 

•Lock the bolt to the rear

•Shake out the bad round

•Decide then and there if you want a fresh magazine or not given your situation

•Reengage targets and move  


Note that they are very similar but it all depends on your situation. Biggest thing is keeping the muzzle in a safe direction, finger off the trigger and lock the bolt to the rear then assess from there. 

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8 minutes ago, Rabbit57 said:

I was shooting at the local indoor range the other day, and I had a failure to feed properly. Turns out it was a bad magazine, but as I stood there with a blowback operated machine gun in my hands, I wondered about the proper sequence to make the weapon safe, clear the mag and the partially chambered round, and finally make sure the chamber was clear and there was nothing in the barrel. 
From the experts, what is the proper sequence?
Thanks,
Mark

1. Keep weapon pointing down range, finger off trigger.

2.  Drop the magazine.

3. Retract the bolt and apply the safety.

4. Clear the jam.

That is the procedure that we use at the Thompson Show at Tracie Hills Show every year.  It is simple, yet effective.

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1 hour ago, gijive said:

1. Keep weapon pointing down range, finger off trigger.

2.  Drop the magazine.

3. Retract the bolt and apply the safety.

4. Clear the jam.

That is the procedure that we use at the Thompson Show at Tracie Hills Show every year.  It is simple, yet effective.

No offense, but this makes no sense to me.

When you drop the mag on a jammed SMG, a lot of times the bolt releases.   

There are a lot of jams where pulling the mag would slam-fire the gun, especially on an SMG with a fixed firing pin. 

I would retract the bolt before I dropped the mag.

ANYWAY, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KEEP THE GUN POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION UNTIL THE JAM IS CLEARED AND THE GUN IS EMPTY OF ALL AMMO, INCLUDING ANY CARTRIDGE THAT MIGHT BE LURKING IN THE CHAMBER.   (Actually, you should always avoid flagging people with the muzzle, no matter what the circumstances.)

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Off subject,

I was trying to explain to a group of elementary-school teachers how to "Safe" a California-spec locked-in-mag AR15 if they talk a shooter out of it.

Basically..."You'd need a tool kit".

"Just set it on the floor and don't let anybody touch it", call 911             Phil

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My method differs a bit. 

I hold the bolt back manually with one hand even though it should be sitting on the sear, I don't trust that.  Then with the other hand remove the magazine, carefully set the gun down, and re-asses the situation without initially touching the gun and slowly think through what I see and potential remedies and cause of the problem.  Often it's a simple failure to feed, but occasionally there's stuff stuck back in the action that is the real problem, and just because you cleared the "jam" doesn't mean you fixed the problem?

I rarely shoot at a range if other people are there, because I've seen plenty of help turn into a problem as people tend to rush through it or take advice from bystanders that aren't familiar with open bolt guns...or guns in general.  It seems so simple......and yet.  Machine guns in general are not "public range friendly" with other people around.  Maybe it's just me, but people with guns generally scare me?

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Great discussion! I do hope everyone on this forum takes the time to read and digest all of it. 

Having taught firearms and run ranges for many years (in the past) I have one hard and fast rule that I try my best to make sure everyone understands and does not forget. It has been my experience that most people cannot learn 2 or more things at one time. But they can learn one rule if you repeat it enough times and have them say it a few times too. Regardless of what happens, KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED DOWN RANGE. PERIOD!

For situations that occur while not at a firing range, i do like Phil's comment about putting it on the floor pointed in a safe direction (or the safest direction you can determine) and not touching it until someone arrives that knows what they are doing. Most cops, agents and shooters are not gun experts. If possible, secure the immediate area and leave it alone. Someone will eventually show up that knows what to safely do. Do not get in a hurry unless the situation dictates otherwise. 

All good stuff!!!

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Agree, if you keep the muzzle pointed down-range at all times, you've done something right. Everything else is just technique, which will vary with the firearm and the shooter.  

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6 hours ago, TD. said:

Great discussion! I do hope everyone on this forum takes the time to read and digest all of it. 

Having taught firearms and run ranges for many years (in the past) I have one hard and fast rule that I try my best to make sure everyone understands and does not forget. It has been my experience that most people cannot learn 2 or more things at one time. But they can learn one rule if you repeat it enough times and have them say it a few times too. Regardless of what happens, KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED DOWN RANGE. PERIOD!

For situations that occur while not at a firing range, i do like Phil's comment about putting it on the floor pointed in a safe direction (or the safest direction you can determine) and not touching it until someone arrives that knows what they are doing. Most cops, agents and shooters are not gun experts. If possible, secure the immediate area and leave it alone. Someone will eventually show up that knows what to safely do. Do not get in a hurry unless the situation dictates otherwise. 

All good stuff!!!

A 'life time' of military training tends to make clearing stoppages, safely and efficiently, 2nd nature.

I recall being in a range in the early 1990's, on a beautiful summers day, rare in Otterburn, near the Scottish border firing SA80's, (L85A1) for the first time. They were poop, compared with what I was used to prior to that. The French FAMAS and AKs when in Africa, and prior to that the L1A1 SLR and the L2A3 (Sterling) submachine gun.

On that day almost every other round was creating a stoppage, as well as magazines falling off, the mag release was badly positioned. Also the catch on the top cover of the gas mechanism was too weak and had a habit of  popping open; to mention just a couple of the many issues that I recall.

Sadly for British arms industry, the SA80 underwent significant upgrade in the early 2000s by Heckler & Koch; veterans would have been turning in their graves knowing it took the Germans to make the standard British army rifle serviceable.

Edited by rpbcps
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there are actually 3 types of jams:

1. misfire or hang fire

2. failure to feed

3. failure to eject

there are several subtypes of each of the three

for example, #3 could consist of the gun leaving the cartridge stuck in the end of the barrel, or trapped in the ejection port by the slide (called a "stovepipe" jam), or just sitting loose in the action of the gun.

the activity needed to clear the jam could vary from just tilting the ejection port towards the floor and letting the round fall out, to having to partly disassemble the firearm, to pushing a jammed round out with a cleaning rod.

Sometimes guns jam up so hard that you need to take them apart.   Somehow UZIs will crush up a case and get it into the receiver BEHIND the bolt, so you have to take the top cover off and remove the bolt to clear it.   It's a mystery how that happens.

what these guys said about yanking the bolt back and dropping the mag will clear most jams.  Dont forget to tilt the ejection port towards the floor and shake the gun and curse a little. 

If you pull the trigger and nothing happens, wait 30 seconds before ejecting the bad round, it could be a hangfire and go off on its own.

one thing to always watch out for is checking to see if a round is left in the barrel.   A lot of ranges are dim under the awning, and if it's a sunny day your eyes can be so sun blind that when you look in the chamber you just see blackness, instead of the end of a cartridge.

KEEP THE MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION AND WEAR SAFETY GLASSES.
 

Edited by Doug Quaid
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Yes, at the indoor range, they charge a substantial penalty for shooting a round into the ceiling! 

I wanted to clear the round that was halfway out of the mag, and I also wanted to push a cleaning rod down the barrel, to make sure my issue was not a squib, and as I thought about what I was trying to do, I stopped. I was unsure of how to proceed. I did not want to put a rod down the barrel with any chance of the bolt going forward, and I have to admit, it took me awhile to figure out how to proceed. This is my first machine gun, I was more than a little concerned. 

Mark

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14 hours ago, First Sergeant said:

I have witnessed many times where a jammed Uzi will fire if the mag is dropped as the first sequence.  To all: adhere to the  muzzle down range, finger off trigger, bolt locked back, safety on , drop mag sequence.  It works !!

Pretty much any open bolt gun can fire when the bolt is jammed on the mag (not locked all the way back) and the mag is dropped....

There are even some open bolt guns that often leave an extra live round chambered when the "last round" has fired (AM180).

 

You have to be extremely careful with guns that fire from an open bolt as they WILL fire without the trigger being pulled.

This is especially true for new shooters that only have experience with closed bolt guns (99% of all people); close supervision is mandatory.

 

Edited by mattnh
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On 2/4/2023 at 6:24 PM, anjong-ni said:

Off subject,

I was trying to explain to a group of elementary-school teachers how to "Safe" a California-spec locked-in-mag AR15 if they talk a shooter out of it.

Basically..."You'd need a tool kit".

"Just set it on the floor and don't let anybody touch it", call 911             Phil

Best way to avoid that situation is to..... MOVE out of California.

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