Rekraps Posted February 11, 2023 Report Share Posted February 11, 2023 Of course we all hate it. But, I thought it wise to start a thread on this issue so that in the event a court does not "stay" the rule, people will be aware. It came to me yesterday when at the gun shop that the vast majority of pistol brace gun owners are probably not active in the gun hobby, and maybe own just that one AR/AK type pistol with a brace and a few pistols/shotguns etc. I can just see a disaster looming as most (most agree the number is around 10 million or more!) will simply not be aware of the new rule and therefore NOT be able to make an informed decision on whether to register, or for that matter HOW to register the gun if they so choose. Waiving the $200 stamp charge is the least of the elimination of impediments of getting the majority of those who own the guns to understand what is going on. My strategy is this: I use the Silencer Shop for my NFA stuff, and am familiar with the Form 4/Form 1/Form 3 process. I fully plan on registering my "pistols" if the rule is not stayed by the due date, and the Silencer Shop will use existing accounts (that already have fingerprints/photos/Trust documents etc.) to make things easy. I went to their site last week and set up "Draft" accounts for each gun that I will register if necessary. A few quick questions, up load photos and you are ready to go. Cost is $50 per gun WHEN they submit, which is not till I move the account out of "Draft" status. I had considered doing my own Form 1, but why? It only took about 20 minutes to take photos and upload them into the system. The big question, besides whether or not you will register your pistol, remove the brace, destroy the gun or turn the gun in is this: If you have a Trust like me, then the Form 1 registration can only use the Trust IF the Trust owned the guns as of 1/31/2023. I thought about this and did the necessary transfer of the guns to the Trust in early January. If you did not do the transfer of ownership to the Trust in time, then each registration will be for an individual. Ouch. So what I will do, is monitor the news and periodically update this thread with the latest and greatest as it relates to the implementation of the rule or the Stay of the rule. Also, if any of you have questions on how the Silencer Shop is handling this, ask away and I'll call them an get answers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted February 11, 2023 Report Share Posted February 11, 2023 (edited) Hi Rekraps, Update - This can also be done directly via BATF's e-forms site for free. Just drag and drop your photos, trust docs and eft files. What is nice about doing it within the 120 days is there is no marking requirement. Kinda a free pass to an SBR. Info for the folks not using the SS. Grasshopper Edited February 12, 2023 by Grasshopper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 17 hours ago, Grasshopper said: Hi Rekraps, Update - This can also be done directly via BATF's e-forms site for free. Just drag and drop your photos, trust docs and eft files. What is nice about doing it within the 120 days is there is no marking requirement. Kinda a free pass to an SBR. Info for the folks not using the SS. Grasshopper Mucho thanks! That's what this forum is about, sharing information! Great points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) I am fortunate that a local shop has the hardware and software to create .EFT files. Now that form 1's (specifically the tax exempt form 1's) can be submitted with the .EFT's, passport pics and any other images you wish to supply attached there is no need to depend on the USPS to get your finger print cards to the NFA branch in 10 days and HOPE they get them associated with your E-Form 1. I tried twice last fall to SBR the same gun I wanted to install a brace onto and both times was denied as the fingerprint cards arrived late. A friend sat thru the interactive WEB presentation the ATF ran for 2 days. The question they did not really address is HOW are they going to handle processing all these applications. The other half of that question is what is this going to do to E-Form 4 processing times. Could put a dent in the MG market if transfers take years for the next 5 years! Richard Edited February 12, 2023 by APEXgunparts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppgcowboy Posted February 12, 2023 Report Share Posted February 12, 2023 Honestly I hope the atf gets abolished. I have said this before somewhere here that congress makes laws, not a government agency like the atf. It is ridiculous that an armbrace is dangerous until you give them $200, as in the case of suppressors. Chaos is the end result they are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2023 14 hours ago, APEXgunparts said: I am fortunate that a local shop has the hardware and software to create .EFT files. Now that form 1's (specifically the tax exempt form 1's) can be submitted with the .EFT's, passport pics and any other images you wish to supply attached there is no need to depend on the USPS to get your finger print cards to the NFA branch in 10 days and HOPE they get them associated with your E-Form 1. I tried twice last fall to SBR the same gun I wanted to install a brace onto and both times was denied as the fingerprint cards arrived late. A friend sat thru the interactive WEB presentation the ATF ran for 2 days. The question they did not really address is HOW are they going to handle processing all these applications. The other half of that question is what is this going to do to E-Form 4 processing times. Could put a dent in the MG market if transfers take years for the next 5 years! Richard No kidding. They MUST have some type of expedited que for this issue, otherwise there is no way ever, that the ATF could or would process the volume of applications. I also suspect that at some point the efile system will crash with the volume, especially near the deadline for amnesty. Personally, I believe that the ATF does not think most will file, thus by default reducing the number of legal SBR's out there, compared to what could be. I'm hoping to get my last SMG Form 4 in before the rush in April. I am not convinced that the courts will stay this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 (edited) ATF claims that it is the FBI fingerprint processing that causes most of the delay on routine applications (like SBR's and suppressors). The NFA division people have to take the time to scan in all the cards and then transmit the data to the FBI to be processed. The FBI doesn't have an office located at the ATF to do this work, it gets sent offsite and the FBI does not assign the work any sort of priority. When I was on the F.A.I.R. Trade board and met with the division and department heads this was brought up and the ATF said working out an interdepartmental agreement to have an FBI office in the NFA division area to accomplish the fingerprint record checks was tantamount to a peace agreement in the mid-east. I do understand, working as a contractor for the US Army Software Engineering Center (S.E.C.) and also witnessing our military customer trying to get arrangements with other DoD organizations worked out to accomplish the mission, well serving the country and the taxpayers wasn't much of a reason to make changes. At least the applicant on form 1's and form 4's can now provide .EFT files that are forwarded direct to the FBI. The NFA division people don't have to spend time on the scanning step of the printed fingerprint cards. E-Forms as a system is designed to reduce processing time as data doesn't need to be transcribed from paper to a digital record. My guess is the tax exempt form 1's will overwhelm the system, causing a lot of voter complaints to Congress. This in turn will drive some sort of change to how NFA is handled / approved. E-Forms will evolve into something easy for the citizen to manage on their own, with an AI to check the recorded transfers. That could lead to expanding the NFA to include other classes of dangerous looking semi-auto firearms?? That last part is just some wild speculation on my part! Hope its proven to be wrong. Richard Edited February 14, 2023 by APEXgunparts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brveagle Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 Also it's important to note that one does not get a "free tax stamp" or any tax stamp for that matter if they go through the process. Some of the approvals are starting to come back and this was noted immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 (edited) If you use E-Forms for any NFA item you don't get a tax stamp. I have a Form 4 that was filed thru E-Forms and you get back a data file that you can print off. Not even an image of the tax stamp on that form. So, this isn't unique to the "tax exempt" filings. I am glad to hear that people are getting back their approved Form 1's for their braced guns. CORRECTION....I was wrong, my E-Form filed Form 4 does have an image of the "generic" tax stamp in the background of block 1. The text of block 1 is superimposed over it. Richard Edited February 15, 2023 by APEXgunparts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brveagle Posted February 14, 2023 Report Share Posted February 14, 2023 I have eform 1's approved for sbr with the digital tax stamp attached. Regardless i didn't mean to distract from the OP's post, just wanted to point out what others were posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 On 2/14/2023 at 3:40 PM, APEXgunparts said: If you use E-Forms for any NFA item you don't get a tax stamp. I have a Form 4 that was filed thru E-Forms and you get back a data file that you can print off. Not even an image of the tax stamp on that form. So, this isn't unique to the "tax exempt" filings. I am glad to hear that people are getting back their approved Form 1's for their braced guns. CORRECTION....I was wrong, my E-Form filed Form 4 does have an image of the "generic" tax stamp in the background of block 1. The text of block 1 is superimposed over it. Richard And the eForm stamp is in color... so I print it off in color for my records. What kills me is that say I have two or three, maybe more items in que. Why doesn't the ATF combine the submissions into a single one and thus vastly improve turn-around times. Or how about this radical idea, if you already HAVE an approved NFA item, and then later submit another application, then a quick check of the system for outstanding felonies or other issues, and if clear the stamp is approved. But maybe that's asking too much... common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 17, 2023 Report Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Rekraps said: And the eForm stamp is in color... so I print it off in color for my records. What kills me is that say I have two or three, maybe more items in que. Why doesn't the ATF combine the submissions into a single one and thus vastly improve turn-around times. Or how about this radical idea, if you already HAVE an approved NFA item, and then later submit another application, then a quick check of the system for outstanding felonies or other issues, and if clear the stamp is approved. But maybe that's asking too much... common sense. I was fortunate enough to have an examiner combine my last submission with one that had been in the system for enough time to be just about ready. She also included a couple of others that were in the middle. I challenged my transferring dealer to make the call and ask for it to happen, and promised him enough $$$ to make it worth his time. Not sure what was said, I know he (my dealer) has a way of politely asking to make things happen. He told me the ATF examiner had said "no way, we do not combine form-4's in processing", then a few weeks later they all came back approved! That is how I bought a Thompson at the December SAR show and had it in my hands that February! Well worth the money I paid for that phone call to happen. Probably the only time I will catch a break on getting form-4's back approved! Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 18, 2023 Report Share Posted February 18, 2023 Today my Tax Exempt E-Form-1 came back approved. I submitted it on the 14th of January, and was approved 17th of February. As noted previously, these tax exempt forms don't have the green tax stamp graphic under the text in block 2. There is also a note, "APPROVED with CONDITIONS, see last page" On the last page this is printed: "Pursuant to ATF final rule 2021R-08F" Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2023 15 hours ago, APEXgunparts said: Today my Tax Exempt E-Form-1 came back approved. I submitted it on the 14th of January, and was approved 17th of February. As noted previously, these tax exempt forms don't have the green tax stamp graphic under the text in block 2. There is also a note, "APPROVED with CONDITIONS, see last page" On the last page this is printed: "Pursuant to ATF final rule 2021R-08F" Richard Excellent update. A newer version of amnesty paperwork.... but it works. I'm curious though, NO stamp of any kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 19, 2023 Report Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Rekraps said: Excellent update. A newer version of amnesty paperwork.... but it works. I'm curious though, NO stamp of any kind? ATF Form 1, Block 1 (Type of application) has (C) checked off. TAX EXEMPT. Firearm is not subject to the making tax pursuant to title 26.... No tax collected, so no $200 stamp image... Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2023 Excellent update and info. Learn something every day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2023 1 hour ago, APEXgunparts said: ATF Form 1, Block 1 (Type of application) has (C) checked off. TAX EXEMPT. Firearm is not subject to the making tax pursuant to title 26.... No tax collected, so no $200 stamp image... Richard But allow me to ask why you registered the gun so early in the process? I suspect many will do so as a way of getting a real SBR without paying the $200! Now that's a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 21, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 4:31 PM, Rekraps said: But allow me to ask why you registered the gun so early in the process? I suspect many will do so as a way of getting a real SBR without paying the $200! Now that's a thought! After thinking about it a bit, today I sent in the Form 1 for my Sig Sauer 516 pistol with factory brace. What a ugly baby that thing is and no amount of brace fixing is going to make it look better. So, as luck and circumstance would have it, I decided to avoid the tax and register this gun as a SBR. Most of my other "Pistol" units look fine with the brace, so I'll wait till the end to register them as it will impact resale ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted February 21, 2023 Report Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Resolved in above post. Edited February 21, 2023 by Grasshopper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APEXgunparts Posted February 21, 2023 Report Share Posted February 21, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 2:31 PM, Rekraps said: But allow me to ask why you registered the gun so early in the process? I suspect many will do so as a way of getting a real SBR without paying the $200! Now that's a thought! I am not sure what you are asking. I did want to get my Form 1 in ASAP once they process was in place as I figured the longer I waited to submit the paperwork the delay on the approval would be exponential. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 22, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2023 20 hours ago, Grasshopper said: Resolved in above post. Correct. Timing and circumstance make for good partners. Those who want a true SBR, now is the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2023 Just finished submission of Form 1 for my Sig 516 Pistol and it was a piece of cake. Like I said earlier, the SIG brace was butt ass ugly and huge. Used Silencer Shop ($50)... they do all the work. Holding off on the rest of the guns until we see how the courts are feeling about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasscatcher Posted February 26, 2023 Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 (edited) So my question is if this approval based on ATF final rule 2021R-08F and it is eventually overturned, and it will be. Will the firearm that was registered then be null and void as a SBR brace gun since it was only approved because of the brace ruling. Edited February 26, 2023 by Brasscatcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted February 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2023 11 hours ago, Brasscatcher said: So my question is if this approval based on ATF final rule 2021R-08F and it is eventually overturned, and it will be. Will the firearm that was registered then be null and void as a SBR brace gun since it was only approved because of the brace ruling. Great question. Who knows. My bet is that once they are approved as SBR then that it is. Once I get my approved form back, I'm putting on a regular stock, so it really is a SBR. I suppose that most others will do the same. Like I said earlier, I'm a waiting till the last moment to register just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted March 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2023 Quick update on Silencer Shop and Form 1 Amnesty submissions. The process is that if you have an account with them, (which I do) then you fill out a quick form, download pics and they prepare and submit the Form 1 to ATF. That's how its supposed to go. I followed all the instructions to the "T", including the Docusign etc. Then the trouble started: SS contacted me to certify, so I logged on and everything stopped. The ATF form indicated incomplete, pending upload of electronic documents (Trust and Trust ownership & pics) The Tab would not let up upload and so I got hit with a "failed"... Try again Try again Try again Called SS... wait time is HOURS... Tried SS Chat... wait time is HOURS Sent several emails to SS They finally called. Said things were dicey and SS was completely overloaded with submissions. SS sent my issue to SS Compliance No resolution as of today. Been about a week or so. So I would recommend that everyone consider carefully whether to use SS or to just submit the Form 1's yourself. I'm really disappointed in SS, I probably have used them 20+ times for normal Form 4's with never an issue one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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