Pistol Brace Registration 120 days from January 31

[johnsonlmg41]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:07 PM, Brasscatcher said:

So my question is if this approval based on

ATF final rule 2021R-08F

and it is eventually overturned, and it will be. Will the firearm that was registered then be null and void as a SBR brace gun since it was only approved because of the brace ruling.

Yes it will be null and void

because you won't have tax stamp that showed proof of payment to make a "legitimate" SBR.   This is a one time deal....as long as the deal lasts within it's parameters, if it lasts?  I'd think the outcome will be a couple years down the road for final verdicts.  I haven't read any of the stuff yet, but if you have a shotgun upper is that also allowed?

I'll wait until the last week before I do anything. 

Silencershop.....you mean that personal information stealing site with unsecured kiosks and bathroom mounted servers?   LOL  I'm sure facebook could set up these form 1's, maybe they have a page?

[maxfaxdude]

3 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Quick update on Silencer Shop and Form 1 Amnesty submissions. The process is that if you have an account with them,  (which I do) then you fill out a quick form, download pics and they prepare and submit the Form 1 to ATF.

That's how its supposed to go.

I followed all the instructions to the "T", including the Docusign etc. Then the trouble started:

• SS contacted me to certify, so I logged on and everything stopped.
• The ATF form indicated incomplete, pending upload of electronic documents (Trust and Trust ownership & pics)
• The Tab would not let up upload and so I got hit with a "failed"...
• Try again
• Try again
• Try again
• Called SS... wait time is HOURS...
• Tried SS Chat... wait time is HOURS
• Sent several emails to SS
• They finally called. Said things were dicey and SS was completely overloaded with submissions.
• SS sent my issue to  SS Compliance
• No resolution as of today. Been about a week or so.

So I would recommend that everyone consider carefully whether to use SS or to just submit the Form 1's yourself.

I'm really disappointed in SS, I probably have used them 20+ times for normal Form 4's with never an issue one. 

I used Silencer Shop once for a Form 4 e-file. Never again, they dragged their feet for over 4 months before even submitting to the ATF.    

[maxfaxdude]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:11 PM, APEXgunparts said:

I was fortunate enough to have an examiner combine my last submission with one that had been in the system for enough time to be just about ready.
She also included a couple of others that were in the middle.
I challenged my transferring dealer to make the call and ask for it to happen, and promised him enough $$$ to make it worth his time.
Not sure what was said, I know he (my dealer) has a way of politely asking to make things happen.
He told me the ATF examiner had said "no way, we do not combine form-4's in processing", then a few weeks later they all came back approved!
That is how I bought a Thompson at the December SAR show and had it in my hands that February!
Well worth the money I paid for that phone call to happen.
Probably the only time I will catch a break on getting form-4's back approved!

Richard
 

Richard,

The ATF sometimes DOES batch process paper form 4s.  I got 5 approved form 4s back all at once by the same examiner with waiting times ranging from 1.5 to about 9 months.  It's one of the reasons I still do paper Form 4s.  I don't think the ATF batch processes e forms. 

[Rekraps]

On 3/5/2023 at 1:17 PM, maxfaxdude said:

I used Silencer Shop once for a Form 4 e-file. Never again, they dragged their feet for over 4 months before even submitting to the ATF.    

Starting to wonder about SS. No issues with normal Form 4's, but having a terrible time with the Form 1 Amnesty deal. UGH. 

[Rekraps]

Update: 

I am a current customer of SS, so they have my electronic finger prints, RPQ's, Trust documents etc. Going through them for the Amnesty registration was a logical choice, at $50 per gun. 

If you use them, then make sure your initial SS forms you populate include Pics of the gun, and pics of the SN. Then, you must include a Trust document if you are a Trust AND Proof of ownership of the guns by the Trust as of 1/31/2023.

When I went back and reviewed their files, the Trust document was missing. That's what held up the certification.

I attached the document and we're off and running.

Yes I know, many of you will not register until the bitter end, but for me I own quite a few of the Brace guns and there were several that I certainly wanted to SBR, but did not want to pay the $200 tax stamp fee. Now was the time. The guns are all ACE Galil "pistols", 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 51. They will not only look better with a  normal stock, but they will function better. 

As for the rest, I'll wait until May to take action.

[Rekraps]

Update: SS got their together and are now operating like expected. Wait times from submission of data to them to DocuSign is now running about 5 working days, vs almost overnight about two weeks ago. I spoke with Jeff and they are literally being swamped with Amnesty Form 1 requests. 

 

Don't wait too long!

[Bridgeport28A1]

I had BATFE tell my U.S. Senator’s office in writing that it was illegal for them (BATFE) to batch approve Form 4’s. Each approval supposedly required it own FBI background check. I had suggested batch approvals would speed up the queue.

More power to those that have received batch approvals.

[Rekraps]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:51 PM, Bridgeport28A1 said:

I had BATFE tell my U.S. Senator’s office in writing that it was illegal for them (BATFE) to batch approve Form 4’s. Each approval supposedly required it own FBI background check. I had suggested batch approvals would speed up the queue.

More power to those that have received batch approvals.

Great point. What I don't understand is how the ATF can tell us that the background checks are the reason for the almost 9 month wait on Form 4's, then turn around and approve Amnesty Form 1's (with background checks) in about a ;month. Odd....

[MGTedFL]

I had eight F4's approved in one batch, from one examiner...all with the same approval date, and rubber-stamp signature. Had to get a bank loan to pay the transfer fees  to my SOT. Submission dates spanned 16 months. Each paper F4 application had two FP cards, pictures, apps in duplicate and a check....as each was submitted separately (MG, SBR and cans) ....go figure......

Edited April 11, 2023 by MGTedFL

[johnsonlmg41]

Great point. What I don't understand is how the ATF can tell us that the background checks are the reason for the almost 9 month wait on Form 4's, then turn around and approve Amnesty Form 1's (with background checks) in about a ;month. Odd....

 

Because I'm pretty sure that's not being done at all to the same extent as a form 4.  These new amnesty registrations are for stuff that you already have, thus really only a cursory, if any, background check is needed.  You already have a live gun, there is nothing to check, unlike other NFA processes where you are getting something new, or even making a gun.  I'd guess they are rubber stamping all this stuff with no check at all, because really all you got was a stock....that you already have?   If a problem develops down the line, they have all your info to refer back to and have now succeeded in adding potentially millions of people to their database of firearms owners....and their fingerprints.  How long before you have to swab and include a test tube?  Oh wait, they just collected DNA from 72% of the country?  Ancestry.com will fill in the blanks.

If challenged, I'm not even sure it would be legal to make you go through a second BC for an existing gun in your possession?  I don't agree with the legality of any BG checks since the data we now have shows they are worthless.

[anticus]

I submitted the eForm 4 yesterday for my Sten. Hoping that it’s approved before Christmas, but with all this going on, not optimistic.

[Rekraps]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:53 AM, anticus said:

I submitted the eForm 4 yesterday for my Sten. Hoping that it’s approved before Christmas, but with all this going on, not optimistic.

There has to be separate ques for Amnesty Form 1's and regular Form 4's. I have three Form 4' in the works and since have added 7 Amnesty 1's.

 

We'll see

[Rekraps]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:31 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

Great point. What I don't understand is how the ATF can tell us that the background checks are the reason for the almost 9 month wait on Form 4's, then turn around and approve Amnesty Form 1's (with background checks) in about a ;month. Odd....

 

Because I'm pretty sure that's not being done at all to the same extent as a form 4.  These new amnesty registrations are for stuff that you already have, thus really only a cursory, if any, background check is needed.  You already have a live gun, there is nothing to check, unlike other NFA processes where you are getting something new, or even making a gun.  I'd guess they are rubber stamping all this stuff with no check at all, because really all you got was a stock....that you already have?   If a problem develops down the line, they have all your info to refer back to and have now succeeded in adding potentially millions of people to their database of firearms owners....and their fingerprints.  How long before you have to swab and include a test tube?  Oh wait, they just collected DNA from 72% of the country?  Ancestry.com will fill in the blanks.

If challenged, I'm not even sure it would be legal to make you go through a second BC for an existing gun in your possession?  I don't agree with the legality of any BG checks since the data we now have shows they are worthless.

So if that is true, then if I already have one or more NFA items and submit another then if my background check comes back "bad" I don't get the new items, but can keep the old? This process seems silly. A cursory check for those already in the registry would do the trick... no?

[Rekraps]

Only a week or so left my friends! Chop chop.

[johnsonlmg41]

If your BC comes back bad, you probably already have been to court on whatever reason it was not approved?  Whether or not the reason is valid, you will have to contest or provide documentation that you are not prohibited.  In the meantime the firearms need to be "unavailable" to the registrant.  A local guy got into a car crash while drunk and moved his stuff as he knew charges were coming down.  He moved it all to a local dealer and eventually had it sold off since he was eventually convicted of a felony.  Things do happen, but rarely are they quick, or a surprise, so you generally have time to figure things out.   Generally first time NFA applicants find out on the first transfer after your info is run through NCIC what's going on, and if you'll ever be an NFA owner?   

I know of several guys that have these braces and no one has started registering them?  All but one have NO NFA experience at all, so I don't think they are going to jump into fingerprinting and all the crap that goes with the process?  I'm certain they are not alone?  It's a large subset of gun owners, so it will be quite an interesting case study and legal issue to come. 

[Rekraps]

On 4/23/2023 at 9:13 AM, johnsonlmg41 said:

If your BC comes back bad, you probably already have been to court on whatever reason it was not approved?  Whether or not the reason is valid, you will have to contest or provide documentation that you are not prohibited.  In the meantime the firearms need to be "unavailable" to the registrant.  A local guy got into a car crash while drunk and moved his stuff as he knew charges were coming down.  He moved it all to a local dealer and eventually had it sold off since he was eventually convicted of a felony.  Things do happen, but rarely are they quick, or a surprise, so you generally have time to figure things out.   Generally first time NFA applicants find out on the first transfer after your info is run through NCIC what's going on, and if you'll ever be an NFA owner?   

I know of several guys that have these braces and no one has started registering them?  All but one have NO NFA experience at all, so I don't think they are going to jump into fingerprinting and all the crap that goes with the process?  I'm certain they are not alone?  It's a large subset of gun owners, so it will be quite an interesting case study and legal issue to come. 

Great points all. 

To me, the last Amnesty proved that the ATF was not going to confiscate the guns, rather it did exactly what it proposed and the guns entered the registry. I own a number of what will soon be SBR's (pistol brace guns) and if I do not register them, then they can never be sold at the retail level, only by private sale to individuals knowing that such sale would be illegal. Given the number of potential registrants (meaning number of "pistols" that fall under the new ATF rules) out there, there is no way there could be a mass confiscation. Even if there was, those guns are not my go to guns.

More importantly to me is the fact that I own other NFA items of much more value to me, and I don't and will not run the risk of having them taken away because I failed to register some pistols as SBRs. All it takes is one trip to the range and there just happens to be an ATF agent, either shooting at the range or just visiting and he sees the gun and asks the logical question. Nope. 

To your point however, and I've said this many times, MOST of the owners of the "pistols" in question are not real enthusiasts, just one off buyers who will have no idea of the new rule and by default, become non-compliant and owners of illegal SBRs. Now I do not think in any way that the ATF will prosecute these unknowing people, but if discovered, the guns will be confiscated and destroyed. Surely the ATF had to consider this when making the rule. The end result will be a much smaller pool of new SBR's that could have been, which is in keeping with the Biden administration position on guns. 

As for me, I just finished submitting the last of my "pistols" under the new rule. Now I can buy really cool and usable stocks! 

[buckeye10216]

I received my second of two Form 1 SBR approvals today.  I did both via the dedicated arm brace eFile on Jan 22, 2023.  One was approved in Feb and the second today.  They were for a Micro Galil and VZ61, both of which I wanted to SBR, but didn't want to pay the $200 tax stamp.  We shall see how long it lasts...

[Rekraps]

The last of my registrations was submitted today. 

[Rekraps]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:50 PM, buckeye10216 said:

I received my second of two Form 1 SBR approvals today.  I did both via the dedicated arm brace eFile on Jan 22, 2023.  One was approved in Feb and the second today.  They were for a Micro Galil and VZ61, both of which I wanted to SBR, but didn't want to pay the $200 tax stamp.  We shall see how long it lasts...

So I almost had a conspiracy panic attack last night thinking that perhaps the ATF was going to try and trick us with the offer of amnesty. It would go like this, (in my mind), submit your pistol brace applications for Form 1 amnesty to us and we'll approve them. BUT, because the pistol you submitted was built from imported parts, it appears that your fall afoul of 922r and the gun will therefore NOT be granted amnesty. 

But your galil and VZ, being approved make me feel so much better. I would never forgive the Feds if they had pulled this on us.

I too would rather have a registered SBR than the same gun in a pistol brace configuration. We'll see what comes back.

Was your registration sent to you via USPS or electronic?

[buckeye10216]

Rekraps,

Email and no tax stamp "Approved with conditions, see last page of PDF"  Last page says "Pursuant to ATF final rule 202R-08F."

[Rekraps]

8 hours ago, buckeye10216 said:

Rekraps,

Email and no tax stamp "Approved with conditions, see last page of PDF"  Last page says "Pursuant to ATF final rule 202R-08F."

Got it. Thanks. Because internal parts are not source stamped, there is NO way to determine if USA made parts are used. We are good to go.

[colt21a]

And hope they never ever turn it around and say all before VOID turn it in Oh yeah we know you have them all on the paper.

But yes thru out human history the ones who did right and follow the law are the ones who get damaged the most by it.They let out murderer convicts today.And  today and define a crime down.And less sentence or no sentence.

But mess with these sbrs. and a shorter barrel. you are the stench of the world.It is good we have  the new Bloods to fight them now.

The Old Warriors can rest. 

 

 

[Rekraps]

On 5/2/2023 at 12:17 PM, colt21a said:

And hope they never ever turn it around and say all before VOID turn it in Oh yeah we know you have them all on the paper.

But yes thru out human history the ones who did right and follow the law are the ones who get damaged the most by it.They let out murderer convicts today.And  today and define a crime down.And less sentence or no sentence.

But mess with these sbrs. and a shorter barrel. you are the stench of the world.It is good we have  the new Bloods to fight them now.

The Old Warriors can rest. 

 

 

Well said my friend!

[inertord]

Federal court has stepped in:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-court-deals-blow-atf-pistol-brace-rule-gun-accessory-registration-deadline

[Rekraps]

20 hours ago, inertord said:

Federal court has stepped in:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-court-deals-blow-atf-pistol-brace-rule-gun-accessory-registration-deadline

True, but it only applies to the two plaintiffs! I have decided to comply....