damifino Posted March 15, 2023 Report Share Posted March 15, 2023 (edited) Free legal advice on the web is worth what you pay for it. The "new" 24, Aug. ruling redefined a frame and receiver. On page 10 it says. In addition, the final rule addresses “partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frames or receivers” and provides standards that the industry and the public can apply to better determine whether the component has reached the stage of manufacture to be regulated as a “frame or receiver.” • The rule makes clear that the “frame” or “receiver” includes a partially complete frame or receiver, including a parts kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver, i.e., to house or hold the appliable fire control component. Page 15 Finally, the rule provides that prior determinations that a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including parts kits, was not, or did not include, a frame or receiver prior to April 26, 2022, the publication of rule are not valid or authoritative. Clear as mud? This has nothing to do with importation demil requirements, but leaves the definition wide open to interpretation. It also talks about Privately Made Firearms. Page 20-21. Guns that are made for personal use, by unlicensed individuals. Edited March 15, 2023 by damifino Added text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Bear in mind that part of picture here is what you are selling. All the Russian kits were sawed thru the ejection port but they only brought in the front piece with barrel and grip mount (Big difference vs. bring in (or trying to) all of the matching pieces. $ If you are selling one piece - front, middle, or back no one cares. I have read in multiple ATF documents of the concept of a set of parts “from which a firearm can be assembled “ which is where the matching receiver pieces could be a problem. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damifino Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Hi reconbob, I agree, If some inventive person can zip tie or duct tape a parts kit into a firearm, that would be readily completed. So then, this quote needs context. What defines "readily completed". How basic of a tool box and skill set do you need to reach this level. Is a welder required? A mill or lathe? Is a manual machine OK but a CNC not OK? Will the program to make a part be unlawful because it makes a piece of bar stock "readily" completed (or think 3D printing). I think of myself as an aspiring hobby gun maker (if there is such a thing). Like a model train maker or other craftsman. On 3/15/2023 at 7:18 PM, damifino said: designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeport28A1 Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 (edited) So the Thompson display gun with saw cut receiver with vertical Savage fore grip was listed as being sold 3/15/2023. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/974925072 Maybe the thread title could be edited to include saw cut? Edited March 17, 2023 by Bridgeport28A1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Sarge Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Was the winning bidder a member of ATF? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Now I understand what all the concern is about for this one saw cut receiver. Thanks for posting the link. Wow! I am not sure about the legality but when you play in the machine gun world, it's best not to take unnecessary risks. I don't want a government employee deciding the legality! I would definitely not buy a Thompson receiver cut in this manner. And if I owned it, I would only sell it to someone licensed to manufacture Post Sample machine guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damifino Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Gunpoker apparently has a legal dept. They post this at the top of there site * In accordance with Final Rule 2021R-08F items that fall under Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” have been removed Click here to learn more. * With this as an example, do they police their ads. Are they required to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted March 18, 2023 Report Share Posted March 18, 2023 I had seen that M1928A1 with the three matched saw cut pieces. Back in the day, 1950's-1960's there was no epoxy. But 60 years later there are a variety of epoxies - "Plastic Steel" comes to mind. If these receiver pieces were glued together using Plastic Steel without question you'd have a shootable gun/receiver. Maybe not for long, but it would work/shoot. Back when I was working on my full auto blank gun I had the opportunity to meet IN PERSON (good luck today) with the then head of the ATF Technical Services Branch to discuss my design. That early model of my gun had an aluminum receiver and a plastic bolt with a steel head. The idea being that it would be OK for blanks but that the plastic bolt would shatter into pieces if live ammo was fired. The ATF guy (and he was very nice about it) said this design was a NO-GO because you could still fire one shot even if the gun/bolt then broke. So using that mentality this saw cut M1928A1 on GB is trouble. But we don't know what will happen. Does the ATF go after the guy? They can get his name and address (and also the guy that sold it) in seconds from GB. Did they not notice? Do they not care? Do they care, but they think their limited resources would be better spent going after a guy selling dozens of 80% Glocks or Polymer 80% at a gun show? And what does the buyer do with this? Maybe he bought it for the parts as a parts set and has no interest in making a gun? Once again maybe 40-50 years ago i remember reading about a case the ATF brought against a guy pertaining to "having a set of parts from which a firearm can be assembled" and the defense went down the road that for the defendant to complete/finish the gun would require XX hours and machining tools and equipment which would cost XX,XXX dollars and I believe the guy got off. Who knows where this will end up. In another thread I mentioned my skepticism about being able to 3D print a M1928A1 Thompson receiver because of the square thread for the barrel, the trigger frame rails, and the angle cuts for the bronze lock. But I have no doubt an M1/M1A1 Thompson receiver could be 3D printed and fitted with a barrel and trigger frame and be a working gun. So, where are you at risk? Would having a 3D printer and a 3D model to print be enough even though you have not actually printed anything? No different than the guy who did not yet finish/build his saw cut project. I won't hold my breath but it would be nice if they were sensible about this. Long ago NRA proposed that for a gun to be considered a firearm, it would have to actually be a firearm. Not a set of parts requiring machining and assembly - which is different than parts themselves which need only be assembled - the old M1/M2 Carbine situation where all that is needed is hand assembly to go from semi to full auto. If you are driving down the road with a case of beer in the back you do not get arrested for drunk driving because you have in your car "a set of materials from which drunk driving can be assembled". When you are driving down the road in your Corvette or Porsche that will do 180MPH you don't get arrested for speeding unless...you are actually speeding. Not because because you are in a car "from which you would be able to speed". Like I said, I won't hold my breath. Nobody want to be the next test case. Safety first. Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skittorius Posted March 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2023 On 3/13/2023 at 11:31 AM, APEXgunparts said: You need to contact GunBroker customer service. As a seller you can't end an auction, only GunBroker has the admin privilege to end an auction. They can and will stop an auction with bids if there is a problem with the listing. They won't like to, and its going to be time consuming, but they can do it. However, with a legal concern about the item, and a contractual concern as a seller, you need to contact GunBroker. F2A Inc. is our firearms side and we have been thru that process. Richard Hello Richard, about two days in I did open a case with them, used the drop-down to select "security" when they asked the nature of the issue, I politely explained there may be a legal issue and if they could please cancel the listings but they completely ignored me and let the auction finish. Doesn't really say much for GB's customer support or even proper management of the website. You would think that if a legal issue did arise then they opened themselves up to a liability by ignoring being notified. Maybe not, who knows what their fine print reads. Then to add insult to injury I had a bunch of hard heads keep bidding the items up anyway so now I get the red ass with the final value fees. Not one of my brightest moments 🤡 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryboy77 Posted March 18, 2023 Report Share Posted March 18, 2023 Incorrect.Several SOT's that gave up licenses cut guns once or twice and that was legal (and overseen and approved of by local ATF) so the destruction tion by saw is fine here.Even contraband firearms were being destroyed by police by saw by many small departments.The torch cuts was ONLY importers.The kit for sale is legal to sell as it Is destroyed ,I'm not an attorney but lots of incorrect 'ideas' based on people trying to use common sense and come to conclusions that it 'seems' like it should be illegal and people wishing to steer clear tells everyone they should follow their interpretations and why they think they are right.Talk to a knowledgeable firearms attorney, that's what most of us do when we have questions important enough.If you piss someone off they will prosecute you for anything ,even a drawing on a piece of metal can get you thrown in the pokey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted March 18, 2023 Report Share Posted March 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Skittorius said: ...they completely ignored me and let the auction finish. Doesn't really say much for GB's customer support or even proper management of the website. Unfortunately, that is the norm with Gunbroker.com in my experience. They are terrible if you have any kind of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryboy77 Posted March 18, 2023 Report Share Posted March 18, 2023 (edited) The center section is not Original to the kit,so the original kit didn't have the centerpiece,that had to be added .Not illegal unless you piss someone off and they want you. Edited March 18, 2023 by Countryboy77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) I have a very similar looking grip that I bought several years ago. I was told it was an "original Savage," but I didn't really take that claim too seriously. Having said that, it looks exactly like yours. How can I confirm whether mine is legit? Thanks. Edited March 24, 2023 by Gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Post some photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) Note there are some faint circular mill marks on the inside. Hope this helps. Thanks. Edited March 24, 2023 by Gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 Hi Gunner, Looks like an original Savage WWII grip to me. Based on the condition, it is probably refinished at some point during the years, but not too severely sanded. Nice grip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 That's good to know. It does seem like it's had a fresh coat of finish relatively recently. Shall I use oven cleaner to strip it? What kind of oil did they use on the WWII Savages? BOL or Tung? Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gunner said: That's good to know. It does seem like it's had a fresh coat of finish relatively recently. Shall I use oven cleaner to strip it? What kind of oil did they use on the WWII Savages? BOL or Tung? Thanks again! I will email you privately on the PM feature to discuss this with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Posted March 24, 2023 Report Share Posted March 24, 2023 That'll be great. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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