MP 18 acquired - dare I take the snail drum apart for inspection and cleaning?

[maxfaxdude]

I recently acquired a C&R MP 18 with an original snail drum.   The drum does not work so well (the follower moves sometime sticks) - possibly from dirt inside the drum?  I wonder how difficult it is to take the drum apart and reassemble especially considering the incredible spring tension.  

 

 

   

[Rekraps]

Congrats on the gun! Not many out there and you're lucky to get one of the 1020 Police units. From what I have read, only about 200 or so of the 1920 units were made (officially) and that one looks to be in great shape. Last time I counted SN's on mine, I was up to 20! Every part and parcel was stamped to include the screws, extractor, charging handle and firing pin!. Wow. Your gun is very nice. 

Where and how did you get it? I don't recall seeing one on GB or other retailers....

Mine is a post WW1 conversion to stick (1932 or so) with SN 35881 (so we know at least that many were made). I'm not experienced with the snail drum, but as with everything else in the gun world, I say go for it. Worst that can happen is you take it apart and can't reassemble... Andrewski can always fix that. Plus you can then become the SME on snail drum maintenance! I used to hesitate to disassemble things but grew out of it quickly. Most of this stuff is designed to allow soldiers in the field to maintain....

[maxfaxdude]

Well...I did not know it was such an uncommon a configuration!  Thank you for the info.

I bought the gun from Midwest Tactical - I believe I saw it in an email advertisement they had sent me.

I have disassembled, cleaned and reassembled MG13, 15 and 34 double-drums but the spring on this one seems as if it is very tightly wound.

But it looks like I will be taking it apart soon.   I spoke with John Andrewski several months ago and he said he's no longer taking on a type of "routine" gunsmithing. 

 

[StrangeRanger]

Perhaps this will help? Don't know how much detail on the drum maintenance is included

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1167110

"This is an English reprint of the original Berlin 1917 manual. The illustrated manual covers loading/unloading, assembly/disassembly, trouble shooting, cleaning/maintenance, drum use and more. Soft cover, B/W, 24 pages, 5-1/2" x 8-1/2".

Also this

https://www.amazon.com/Luger-Snail-Other-Accessories-Artillery/dp/1931464421

again no idea how well it covers maintenance

Edited March 28, 2023 by StrangeRanger

[Rekraps]

7 hours ago, maxfaxdude said:

Well...I did not know it was such an uncommon a configuration!  Thank you for the info.

I bought the gun from Midwest Tactical - I believe I saw it in an email advertisement they had sent me.

I have disassembled, cleaned and reassembled MG13, 15 and 34 double-drums but the spring on this one seems as if it is very tightly wound.

But it looks like I will be taking it apart soon.   I spoke with John Andrewski several months ago and he said he's no longer taking on a type of "routine" gunsmithing. 

 

I bought my M.P. 18, I (note the spacing and correct designation, everyone gets it wrong) from Midwest also. Mine had been in a museum for years and I bought it as soon as it was listed. All the German guns were produced prior to the end of the war, and many were destroyed or "hidden" post war, then used as is (snail drum) or factory converted to 20 round stick mags. The Versailles treaty prohibited Germany from owning MG's, but allowed approximately 200 of the M.P. 18, I to be kept, all of which were stamped "1920" are are police guns. 

Behind the scenes however, it is clear that instead of destroying all the remaining guns, Germany stockpiled many of them and in keeping with SMG trends, converted them over time for future use. Yours is the earlier, mine is the later.

What we do know is that there are very few in the registry. The gun is 100% milled steel, of super great quality. The weak points in the gun are the recoil spring (small diameter which fits into the rear recess of the very large milled firing pin, and of course the snail drum (Luger). The magazine issue was fixed with the stick mag well, and the recoil spring was never changed. 

In keeping with German anal-retentiveness, almost every part is stamped with a SN, even more so than MP38u40 guns. The list seems endless, but includes the shroud cap, front sight, mag well, receiver, pivot hinge, pivot hinge screw, pivot base screws, pivot base, stock, butt plate, bolt charging handle, bolt, extractor, firing pin, recoil guide, recoil end cap, recoil end cap lever, rear sight leaf, rear sight base, trigger bar, FCG frame and FCG frame screws. There may be more!

If you search GB under "MP 28" there is a guy in Ohio (I think) who found a stash of OEM firing pins and most importantly OEM recoil springs. Get one of each. The springs are prone to kinking. 20 round stick mags are impossible to find. I have just one. 

The stick mag well is slightly different in dimensions than the MP28 or STEN. Those mags can be hand fitted to the M.P. 18, I by shaving about 1 mm vertically off the magazine collar so the units fit into the original stick mag well. Takes a bit of work, but they then fit and function great. 

As with every European SMG, some American commercial 9mm is too weak to drive the heavy bolt and recoil springs. 

Congrats again!

Have you disassembled the gun to see if the internals and other parts match? Even if they don't, the gun is a primo collectors piece and for those of us who look for unusual or early type SMG's, this gun is an absolute MUST HAVE! 

[Rekraps]

1 hour ago, StrangeRanger said:

Perhaps this will help? Don't know how much detail on the drum maintenance is included

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1167110

"This is an English reprint of the original Berlin 1917 manual. The illustrated manual covers loading/unloading, assembly/disassembly, trouble shooting, cleaning/maintenance, drum use and more. Soft cover, B/W, 24 pages, 5-1/2" x 8-1/2".

Also this

https://www.amazon.com/Luger-Snail-Other-Accessories-Artillery/dp/1931464421

again no idea how well it covers maintenance

Somehow I knew you'd have a manual or a link to one! Thanks! 

[Rekraps]

By the way you guys, Allegany Arsenal has English translated original user manuals for the M.P. 18, I and other SMG's of interest. I ordered one ($14 I think) and will let you know if they are good as soon as they arrive. They even had original German language manuals...

I found them when searching for an original PPSH 41 manual (which I cannot find) and ordered an English translation version.

[buckeye10216]

Congrats.  I have had great success with the reproduction snail drums from Numrich that come up occasionally (and although cheaper than originals, they are just under$600 last time they had some in stock).  I didn't look through the above manual yet, but everything I have read basically says that the snail drums are not end user serviceable.  Just food for thought as the original drums are still worth good money (even if not fully operational).  I do not remember the gentleman's name, but he said taking them apart and fiddling with them is not worth it.  FWIW  P.S.  Do not lose the spacer, these are expensive and hard to find too!  Loading tool is essential for the snail drums, again reproductions work well.

[johnsonlmg41]

They are pretty easy to get apart and the spring stays inside after removing the cover.  I had one apart to repair the spring (it was broken in half) and fixed it (more or less).  That was at least 10 years ago or more, but it is as straight forward as it appears.  I'd guess there's a video now somewhere?   I'd clean it up, but it's likely most of the junk/gunk would be in the tower?   Honestly the tiny screws on the other drums are a PITA and generally at least one can be stubborn, so the snail drum is relatively easy?

In my case it was an AEG drum, so it was worth it. 

I bought some of the repros, but have not tested them yet, but I do know Numrich had to send them out to be "reworked".  What that means or if they work with an MP18, I do not know?  Making them work with a luger is one thing, an MP18 is quite another.  HTH

[buckeye10216]

18 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

They are pretty easy to get apart and the spring stays inside after removing the cover.  I had one apart to repair the spring (it was broken in half) and fixed it (more or less).  That was at least 10 years ago or more, but it is as straight forward as it appears.  I'd guess there's a video now somewhere?   I'd clean it up, but it's likely most of the junk/gunk would be in the tower?   Honestly the tiny screws on the other drums are a PITA and generally at least one can be stubborn, so the snail drum is relatively easy?

In my case it was an AEG drum, so it was worth it. 

I bought some of the repros, but have not tested them yet, but I do know Numrich had to send them out to be "reworked".  What that means or if they work with an MP18, I do not know?  Making them work with a luger is one thing, an MP18 is quite another.  HTH

Sorry, what does AEG stand for?  Great to now you had success taking them apart!  I have some "reworked" Numrich drums and some older ones and they all work in my M.P. 18, I (providing I use the spacer).  I sold my Luger, so no idea if they work in that. 

[johnsonlmg41]

AEG is one of the mfr's of snail drums.  Rather scarce since the vast majority are Bing Bros.

Good to know the Numrich drums do work.  I don't think I've ever used the spacer?  In the heat of battle it's for sure a good idea, but at the range all the drums I've put on the gun locked in at the correct point without issues. 

[Mad Machinist]

I'd probably try an ultrsonic cleaner with acetone first.

 

[Rekraps]

What type of speed loader is used for the snail drums?

[johnsonlmg41]

Speed loader......that's a good one!!

[maxfaxdude]

On 3/28/2023 at 6:14 AM, Rekraps said:

I bought my M.P. 18, I (note the spacing and correct designation, everyone gets it wrong) from Midwest also. Mine had been in a museum for years and I bought it as soon as it was listed. All the German guns were produced prior to the end of the war, and many were destroyed or "hidden" post war, then used as is (snail drum) or factory converted to 20 round stick mags. The Versailles treaty prohibited Germany from owning MG's, but allowed approximately 200 of the M.P. 18, I to be kept, all of which were stamped "1920" are are police guns. 

Behind the scenes however, it is clear that instead of destroying all the remaining guns, Germany stockpiled many of them and in keeping with SMG trends, converted them over time for future use. Yours is the earlier, mine is the later.

What we do know is that there are very few in the registry. The gun is 100% milled steel, of super great quality. The weak points in the gun are the recoil spring (small diameter which fits into the rear recess of the very large milled firing pin, and of course the snail drum (Luger). The magazine issue was fixed with the stick mag well, and the recoil spring was never changed. 

In keeping with German anal-retentiveness, almost every part is stamped with a SN, even more so than MP38u40 guns. The list seems endless, but includes the shroud cap, front sight, mag well, receiver, pivot hinge, pivot hinge screw, pivot base screws, pivot base, stock, butt plate, bolt charging handle, bolt, extractor, firing pin, recoil guide, recoil end cap, recoil end cap lever, rear sight leaf, rear sight base, trigger bar, FCG frame and FCG frame screws. There may be more!

If you search GB under "MP 28" there is a guy in Ohio (I think) who found a stash of OEM firing pins and most importantly OEM recoil springs. Get one of each. The springs are prone to kinking. 20 round stick mags are impossible to find. I have just one. 

The stick mag well is slightly different in dimensions than the MP28 or STEN. Those mags can be hand fitted to the M.P. 18, I by shaving about 1 mm vertically off the magazine collar so the units fit into the original stick mag well. Takes a bit of work, but they then fit and function great. 

As with every European SMG, some American commercial 9mm is too weak to drive the heavy bolt and recoil springs. 

Congrats again!

Have you disassembled the gun to see if the internals and other parts match? Even if they don't, the gun is a primo collectors piece and for those of us who look for unusual or early type SMG's, this gun is an absolute MUST HAVE! 

^^^ Thank you for the info!  I'll check out that guy on GB! 

[maxfaxdude]

I finally got the snail drum apart and will post pics of it when I get the chance.  I've searched but have not seen any video online of drum disassembly and/or cleaning,

[maxfaxdude]

The magazine loader is a must have.  It really is next to impossible to load a magazine with more than a few rounds without it!

[Rekraps]

19 hours ago, maxfaxdude said:

The magazine loader is a must have.  It really is next to impossible to load a magazine with more than a few rounds without it!

Ditto for all single feed magazines. M3's are a bear, MP40's the same and PPSH are impossible.

[StrangeRanger]

51 minutes ago, Rekraps said:

... and PPSH are impossible.

Try stuffing 50 rounds into a Lanchester stick by hand and you'll hate your Shpagin mags a lot less

[Rekraps]

14 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Try stuffing 50 rounds into a Lanchester stick by hand and you'll hate your Shpagin mags a lot less

No shit. I actually have 3 of the 50 rounders with an original mag pouch and  it only took one time trying to load those by hand! 

[HANS]

On 3/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, Rekraps said:

I bought my M.P. 18, I (note the spacing and correct designation, everyone gets it wrong) from Midwest also. Mine had been in a museum for years and I bought it as soon as it was listed. All the German guns were produced prior to the end of the war, and many were destroyed or "hidden" post war, then used as is (snail drum) or factory converted to 20 round stick mags. The Versailles treaty prohibited Germany from owning MG's, but allowed approximately 200 of the M.P. 18, I to be kept, all of which were stamped "1920" are are police guns. 

Behind the scenes however, it is clear that instead of destroying all the remaining guns, Germany stockpiled many of them and in keeping with SMG trends, converted them over time for future use. Yours is the earlier, mine is the later.

 

I'd be interested to known where your 200 number comes from, since I've never seen that. The German police (not the armed forces) were allowed to retain 1 submachine gun per 20 officers, which, depending on how you calculate, means between 7,500 and 10,000 guns. The 1920 mark had nothing to do with that, though. It only means that, at the time it was applied, in 1920, that particular gun was in government hands -- as opposed to civilian hands. The reason for this was that many demobilised soldiers had taken their guns with them into civilian life in 1918, and in 1920 the government tried to get them back -- using both stick (severe punishments) and carrot (300 Reichsmark "finder's fee" per returned submachine gun). At least 1,860 submachine guns were returned in this way. The exact number of the 1920-marked M.P.18,Is is unknown, but it certainly was more than 200 -- the police in Bavaria alone had 1,025.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:53 PM, buckeye10216 said:

Sorry, what does AEG stand for? 

Allgemeine Elektricitäts-Gesellschaft (AEG) was a company based in Berlin, active between 1888 and 1996. They built all sort of stuff, primarily related to electric gadgets.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[Rekraps]

19 hours ago, HANS said:

 

I'd be interested to known where your 200 number comes from, since I've never seen that. The German police (not the armed forces) were allowed to retain 1 submachine gun per 20 officers, which, depending on how you calculate, means between 7,500 and 10,000 guns. The 1920 mark had nothing to do with that, though. It only means that, at the time it was applied, in 1920, that particular gun was in government hands -- as opposed to civilian hands. The reason for this was that many demobilised soldiers had taken their guns with them into civilian life in 1918, and in 1920 the government tried to get them back -- using both stick (severe punishments) and carrot (300 Reichsmark "finder's fee" per returned submachine gun). At least 1,860 submachine guns were returned in this way. The exact number of the 1920-marked M.P.18,Is is unknown, but it certainly was more than 200 -- the police in Bavaria alone had 1,025.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Hey Hans, a belated thank you for helping us solve the Austrian Magazine pouch mystery! Good Work.

As to the MP 18's, my information comes from research on the web with several sources siting the approximate number of MP 18's officially permitted under the Versailles treaty. The same research indicated that all of those guns were police stamped "1920" and that number was in the neighborhood of 200. 

Further research (and we are talking Germany here) hints at a much larger number of the guns retained by the state in secret or direct violation of the treaty. I personally know that there were more than 35,000 total guns produced as my serial number is 35,251. Where they all went is a mystery, and how many still exist is equally as mysterious. In the USA, there are not many registered, with some being in the snail drum configuration, and some in the later factory modified stick magazine version. My gun was converted in the early 1030's, indicating that it was one of many that fell outside the "official" ~200 number.

As to how many were in Austria and other countries, who knows. The gun was also produced under license so those could be a different variant.

 

[HANS]

4 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Hey Hans, a belated thank you for helping us solve the Austrian Magazine pouch mystery! Good Work.

As to the MP 18's, my information comes from research on the web with several sources siting the approximate number of MP 18's officially permitted under the Versailles treaty. The same research indicated that all of those guns were police stamped "1920" and that number was in the neighborhood of 200. 

Further research (and we are talking Germany here) hints at a much larger number of the guns retained by the state in secret or direct violation of the treaty. I personally know that there were more than 35,000 total guns produced as my serial number is 35,251. Where they all went is a mystery, and how many still exist is equally as mysterious. In the USA, there are not many registered, with some being in the snail drum configuration, and some in the later factory modified stick magazine version. My gun was converted in the early 1030's, indicating that it was one of many that fell outside the "official" ~200 number.

As to how many were in Austria and other countries, who knows. The gun was also produced under license so those could be a different variant.

 

Hi,

 

no, that 200 number is absolutely incorrect if it is supposed to be the number of German police guns. All serious sources (ie, not the internet) for the police guns give at least 7,500. Again, the Bavarian police alone had 1,025. The Prussian police was much larger, and the other German states also held some.

I've seen serials for the M.P.18,I north of 50,000 (you'll remember that 50,000 was the figure that had been originally ordered during the war), although that doesn't necessarily mean that as many were produced.

The conversions have absolutely nothing to do with the 1920 mark. All guns marked 1920 were originally drum-fed guns that were held by the German government in 1920. Some of these were later (1930 onwards) converted, others not. The 1920 mark really doesn't say much about anything,. It is, of course, also commonly found on many other German weapons that were then in possession of the German government.

After WWI, many of the guns left Germany, but they did keep many in service with the German police and in secret depots for the clandestine shadow army.

No, all the licensed (and unlicensed) variants have distinct features that allow you to easily tell them apart.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[BillinBama]

I can offer nothing regarding the snail drum, but as for the M. P. 18,I, I had one come through my SOT a few years ago,  really interesting story about it.  A soldier brought it back from WWII and had it de-watted, then a local attorney/insurance guy located him and swapped a couple of pistols for it. This man managed to get it re-watted under somewhat dubious circumstances,  and held it in his collection until death. His heirs contacted me about brokering it and I sold it for them to another local gentleman who had originally handled the registration upon re-watting.  I have copies of all the paperwork somewhere and it's an interesting tale.

The insurance guy at one time had a snail drum for the gun, but it couldn't be located and we surmise he sold it at some point. Intesteringly,  this rare piece of history brought very little money compared to other, mire numerous class III pieces. AFAIK, they still don't command real high prices.