Help me understand the mysterious "nickel bolt" ??

[Lawman9328]

As a newer member of the community and after reading, researching, and reviewing the forum, I'd like to be sure I have a correct understanding of something......

I have two "silver colored" bolts (photos included)....one in my Thompson, the other as a spare.  Both are marked as Savage.

I've seen all the different (and VERY non-standardized) terminology used to describe similar colored bolts (i.e. - "nickel bolt", "nickel alloy bolt", "white bolt", "un-blued bolt", etc ,etc.)

Am I correct that in reality all bolts are made of the exact same composition of metals and the only difference was whether they were blued or not ?  From what I seem to have read, all bolts have a little bit of nickel in them to help strengthen them ("nickel alloy") and that other terms like "nickel bolt" and "white bolt" are just terms that are really just used to describe the color.  It also seems that in some discussions the belief is that the blued bolts have a slightly better resistance to corrosion.

I'm just trying to get a basic understanding to help me when I see stuff for sale on various websites referring to the different colors or composition of parts (whether bolts or other internal parts) 

Also....I just noticed that my "spare" bolt has more shine, has sharper corners, and more visible "milling" marks.  Is that just a result of less "wear and tear" since it's been used less ?  Is it possible to tell whether my bolts were previously blued but had it removed at some point ?

Thanks in advance.

Gene

(aka "Lawman9328")

 

 

 

[Doug Quaid]

The silver bolts appear to be made from some kind of nickel alloy steel.

Gun makers started using nickel alloy steel in guns in the late 1800s.   It has high strength and is very resistant to corrosion.

A lot of early 1900s Winchesters are marked "nickel steel" on the barrels.

If the bolts were just made from regular carbon steel and left unfinished "in the white", after 100 years they would be darkened and stained by atmospheric moisture corrosion and human finger grease, which is acidic and salty.

Stainless steel has a crapton of chromium in it, like 12%.    It's very doubtful that the bolts are stainless.  Stainless was still in its infancy in 1920.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

1 hour ago, Doug Quaid said:

The silver bolts appear to be made from some kind of nickel alloy steel.

If the bolts were just made from regular carbon steel and left unfinished "in the white", after 100 years they would be darkened and stained by atmospheric moisture corrosion and human finger grease, which is acidic and salty.
 

Not according to board member reconbob's experience with the TSMG . From his 4/26/2017 post regarding "bright" Colt Thompson Lyman sight ladders.

The December 31, 1921 original AOC  drawings for the treatment and finish of the Lyman Sight ladder stipulate: "Face of Leaf Brighten To Emphasize Graduations."  A bright steel finish is not necessarily indicative of the presence of nickel steel.

Quote

Nickel steel was

a premium grade steel unlikely to be used for a low-strength meaningless part like

a sight ladder. Just because most of them are not very rusty doesn't mean they are

nickel steel. I have seen plenty that are so rusty they need to be re-polished. I think

that is it a stretch so say that because an old part has not rusted over the years, therefore

it was made from nickel steel.

 

[Doug Quaid]

1. Nobody ever said that nickel steel is completely impervious to rusting.   It's resistant to rusting.   It will rust.  Even stainless steel, which is WAY more rust resistant than nickel steel, will form rust.  

2.  The Thompson was very expensive and the fit and finish is as good as any mass produced premium-grade firearm.   Considering that they made Winchester pump shotgun barrels out of nickel steel in the 1920s, why wouldn't they use it on a Thompson that cost 5 or 10 times as much?   $200 in 1920 is $3,193 today.  That's enough money to pay for a few nickel steel parts.

3.  If the bolts were regular carbon steel, you might run across ONE here or there that someone polished up to bright silver.   But they wouldn't ALL be bright silver.   Because carbon steel readily discolors from atmospheric moisture.  How could ALL of the silver bolts look like they were made a week ago if they were regular carbon steel?

You know what would happen if you had a WWII commando knife or Hitler Youth dagger that was bright shiny silver like those bolts pictured above?

People wouldn't say, "Gee whiz, that must be carbon steel that just happened to miraculously not discolor after 79 years."

People would say, "Why did you ruin the value of that knife by polishing the patina off of it?"

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.



 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

2 hours ago, Doug Quaid said:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
 

Did you know that the phrase "if it looks like a duck..." was originally about a mechanical pooing duck?

"In 1738 a French automaton maker fooled the world into thinking he'd replicated life, and accidentally created a flippant philosophical conundrum we are still using."

According to the 1925  "Thompson Submachine Gun Manufacturing Chart- Chemical Composition of Component Parts", as approved by General Thompson*, the only chrome nickel part is the firing pin.

The Colt TSMG bright/white trip, sear, rocker, sear lever, are made of  steel using the following proportions, but zero nickel. 

.45 -.55 carbon, .15 - .25 silicone, .45 - .75 manganese, .040 sulphur, .036 phosphorus 

As far as the bolt, the specs are incontrovertible.

The bolt is made from .25 -.35 carbon, .10 - .20 silicone, .50 - .80 manganese, .05 MAX sulphur, .05 MAX phosphorous and 3.25- 3.75 nickel. 

"The bulk of nickel steels contains 2 and 3.5% nickel. The federal specifications for 3.5% nickel carbon steel call for 3.25 to 3.75% nickel, and 0.25 to 0.30% carbon. Steels with more than 3.5% nickel are too expensive for ordinary structural use."

 

* As printed on page 102 in Tracie Hill's TUTB

 

[Lawman9328]

 

Gents,

While I appreciate the responses, I'm looking for more a more "basic" answer to my original question:

As I mentioned......I've seen all the different (and VERY non-standardized) terminology used to describe silver-colored bolts (i.e. - "nickel bolt", "nickel alloy bolt", "white bolt", "un-blued bolt", etc ,etc.)

My basic questions is am I correct that in reality all bolts for all models of TSMG are made of the exact same composition of metals and the only difference was whether they were blued or not ?  From what I seem to have read, all bolts have a little bit of nickel in them to help strengthen them ("nickel alloy") and that other terms like "nickel bolt" and "white bolt" are just terms that are really just used to describe the color.  

I just want to know whether all bolts are the same.....just some have been blued and others have not (or have had the blue stripped)

Gene

 

[jim c 351]

Gene,

You knew the answer all along..

The only difference between a blued bolt and a white bolt is, the white bolt they didn't bother to blue.

From this point on a person can make the answer as complicated as they wish.

Jim C

[anjong-ni]

Does "hardness" affect the ability of a part to accept bluing?

I have had the opportunity to drill a Thompson bolt (an M1 for a Richardson top-knob 1928 conversion)

         It was harder than the Hubs of Hell.             ...Phil

[Lawman9328]

6 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

Gene,

You knew the answer all along..

The only difference between a blued bolt and a white bolt is, the white bolt they didn't bother to blue.

From this point on a person can make the answer as complicated as they wish.

Jim C

Jim,

I’m still new to the TSMG community so I’m not “sure” of anything yet ! 🥴

I was always told there is no such thing as a stupid question.  Maybe….. but I can say with certainty that there are a lot of stupid people who ask questions !!  I’m one of them 😁

Gene

[Bridgeport28A1]

7 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

Gene,

You knew the answer all along..

The only difference between a blued bolt and a white bolt is, the white bolt they didn't bother to blue.

From this point on a person can make the answer as complicated as they wish.

Jim C

This ^^^^^
 

A noted Ohio Thompson author once told me if I needed a Thompson bolt in the white I just needed to put the blued bolt in WD-40 rust remover soak.

[jim c 351]

Gene,

You didn't ask a stupid question. You ask a good question and many others have ask the same question.

How do you think I knew the answer?

Jim C

[reconbob]

 

      I found the steel and hardening specs for M1928A1 Thompson bolts in Doug's notes.

I do not know if this is the same for M1928 bolts. Anyway, made from 2330 steel. Then:

"pack in 1/2 bone & 1/2 charcoal, heat to 1525 degrees F. penetration 1/64". Length of time

held at 1525 one hour & 20 minutes. quench in oil. draw all over in nitre @ 700 degrees for

1/2 hour"  Then 5 places (sear notches, etc.) are hardened to Rockwell C 62-70. Doug has

added the note that this is a "obviously a case hardening spec." For comparison these 

Rockwell values are what you would find on a Garand receiver.

 

Bob  

[Doug Quaid]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:16 PM, Arthur Fliegenheimer said:

 

As far as the bolt, the specs are incontrovertible.

The bolt is made from .25 -.35 carbon, .10 - .20 silicone, .50 - .80 manganese, .05 MAX sulphur, .05 MAX phosphorous and 3.25- 3.75 nickel. 

"The bulk of nickel steels contains 2 and 3.5% nickel. The federal specifications for 3.5% nickel carbon steel call for 3.25 to 3.75% nickel, and 0.25 to 0.30% carbon. Steels with more than 3.5% nickel are too expensive for ordinary structural use."

 

 

 


So the bolt contains the amount of nickel that is typical for "nickel steel."  So it's nickel steel.  Which accounts for the pristine appearance after 70+ years.

I'm late to this conversation I guess.   I'm not quite grasping the ebb and flow here.

I appreciate the information in any case.

Why does the author refer to "structural use"?   They used nickel steel for gun barrels.  I would consider that to be "structural" with respect to typical gun components.

If he's referring to actual structural steel, like in bridges or buildings, I've never heard of anyone using nickel steel or even wanting to.  Structural steel is its own category of steel and those are characterized by high ductility and toughness and fatigue resistance.   In the AISC steel manual, they list about a dozen steels and that's it.    

I don't think that the cost of nickel steel would keep anyone from making gun parts out of it.    Steel is cheap relative to the machining cost.

When they make a 36 inch rolled steel beam, it's going to weigh somewhere between 125 to 300 lbs per foot.  So the material cost is a huge part of the cost of the beam.  They're going to pay about $1 per pound for the steel.

But if you machined a S&W revolver out of stainless and it was $4 per pound, what does that add to the cost of the gun?  $20?

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[TD.]

I am curious if anyone has every removed the bluing from a USGI 1928 bolt. Since the in the white, bright or nickel Thompson bolts (you pick the term) seems to always sell at a much higher price than a blued bolt, it would seem the part dealers would do this all the time. Perhaps they do but I have never heard of it.

I have always thought the "nickel" bolts were of a slightly different composition than the blue bolts, hence the need to blue or finish the bolt. There has to be a reason why an extra step (the bluing or finish) was added in the production of a bolt. Extra production steps cost money and time

To me, the exterior of the nickel bolts seems to have a little exterior sheen. Is this sheen or look present if the bluing is removed from a blued Thompson bolt?

I don't know the answer. These are just my thoughts on the subject.

All good stuff!!! 

[Merry Ploughboy]

During WWII due to supply chain issues, nickel was scarce in the U.S. so the use of nickel was limited pretty much to military materiel including armor.  U.S. $.05 coins had the nickel content reduced and the difference was made up by using silver which is why '42-'44 U.S. $0.05 coins have a more dull appearance than earlier and later coins of the same face value.  Also for Thompsons, the orthorhombic shaped body oil bottle that was put in the buttstock had the finish changed from the pre-war nickel plated to black color painted.

MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Merry Ploughboy

[StrangeRanger]

FWIW blueing is easily removed.  Naval jelly does a near instantaneous job and neutralizes any bits of rust present

[First Sergeant]

Warm to hot vinegar will also remove bluing, just a slower process. I've done that to a stock catch for a PK'd 21 WH.  Hard to tell at a glance from my original Colt catches. 

[Lawman9328]

ALCON,

I appreciate all of the replies and opinions.....but still haven't quite come up with a definitive answer.

As I mentioned, a lot of my confusion comes from the different (and VERY non-standardized) terminology used to describe "silver colored" bolts (i.e. - "nickel bolt", "nickel alloy bolt", "white bolt", "un-blued bolt", etc ,etc.)

After doing more reading and research, I don't know if that theory is correct....but I haven't really found anything to give me a definitive answer.  To me the "nickel bolt" has a confusing story that isn't explained anywhere on paper.  Using the most recent edition of "American Thunder" as an example.....................

In "AT" on page 298 it states that the original bolts were made from "a nickel plated steel alloy".  To me "plating" indicates an additional (and final) step in the manufacturing process and that step initially seems to have been eliminated because the same page it states that "late production replacement steel bolts were finished with a type III Black Oxide finish" (could that have been done OVER the nickel plating ??).  However on page 299 it shows a pic and says "Like the M1928, many M1 and M1A1 bolts were the bright nickel finish, while later production bolts were often dull blue."  So the nickel finish was apparently a step that was NOT eliminated to save time / money, unless it was done towards the very, very end of production.  This seems to be confirmed on pg 137 when it says "bright nickel bolts were documented on guns throughout the entire serial number ranges in both Savage and Auto-Ordnance guns (it's unclear but perhaps it's because some of the later produced TSMGs had blued bolts replaced with refurbished nickel bolts during maintenance ?) 

Someone I asked told me that when you say a bolt is "in the white" it means the bolt is a steel bolt that hasn't been blued (maybe had it removed ??).  Sounds logical, but can anyone confirm ?   Maybe it was previously blued but someone wanted a more authentic look to their period gun or as TD stated.....white, bright or nickel Thompson bolts seem to always sell at a much higher price than a blued bolt.

It's also unclear to me as to what internal parts were made in a silver color (and when).....either nickel-plated or un-blued.  The original 1921 Thompsons and the Savage "commercial" versions both had "nickel" fire control components according to "AT" (page 119, picture and caption).  In addition, on page 304 it shows a nickel colored firing pin.  In all of these it's unclear if that means nickel plated like the earlier bolts....or just nickel colored (unblued).  The book also doesn't specify when the "nickel" fire control components and any other nickel colored parts were changed.  It is kind of interesting that I see nickel colored bolts on sale quite frequently but I have almost never seen any of the other aforementioned parts for sale in a nickel color (and most of what I have seen are firing pins).  Anyone care to chime in with whether the various components of the original 1921 bolts were also nickel-plated or nickel colored ?

I'm just trying to get a basic understanding to help me when I see stuff for sale on various websites referring to the different colors or composition of parts (whether bolts or other internal parts).  With the price of original parts only going up, I don't want myself (or anyone else) to fall victim to a scammer.  I already have two "silver colored" 1928 bolts (see previous pics)....both marked Savage....but I have no idea if they are the nickel plated version, the "unblued" version (either bluing removed or bluing never done), or something else.  Any ideas on how I can do that ?

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about my new toy........nothing else to do while I wait in ATF purgatory !!!!  Besides, I'm an ex-intel guy.......I'm always going to have questions.

Gene (aka "Lawman9328")

[jim c 351]

Gene,

I fear that you may never find peace, unless you wonder the earth praying for guidance, much like David Carradine in kung foo.

Jim C

[Bridgeport28A1]

On 5/16/2023 at 9:13 AM, TD. said:

I am curious if anyone has every removed the bluing from a USGI 1928 bolt. Since the in the white, bright or nickel Thompson bolts (you pick the term) seems to always sell at a much higher price than a blued bolt, it would seem the part dealers would do this all the time. Perhaps they do but I have never heard of it.

I have always thought the "nickel" bolts were of a slightly different composition than the blue bolts, hence the need to blue or finish the bolt. There has to be a reason why an extra step (the bluing or finish) was added in the production of a bolt. Extra production steps cost money and time

To me, the exterior of the nickel bolts seems to have a little exterior sheen. Is this sheen or look present if the bluing is removed from a blued Thompson bolt?

I don't know the answer. These are just my thoughts on the subject.

All good stuff!!! 

TD., when you are at TATA ask your host if he has stripped an original blued bolt?

I currently own only “in the white” - bright WW2 1928 and M1 bolts. The only blued bolt I have ever owned is long gone. I do own a parkerized M1A1 bolt that came in my RIA stamped M1A1. 

 

[TSMGguy]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:13 AM, TD. said:

I am curious if anyone has every removed the bluing from a USGI 1928 bolt. Since the in the white, bright or nickel Thompson bolts (you pick the term) seems to always sell at a much higher price than a blued bolt, it would seem the part dealers would do this all the time. Perhaps they do but I have never heard of it.

I have always thought the "nickel" bolts were of a slightly different composition than the blue bolts, hence the need to blue or finish the bolt. There has to be a reason why an extra step (the bluing or finish) was added in the production of a bolt. Extra production steps cost money and time

To me, the exterior of the nickel bolts seems to have a little exterior sheen. Is this sheen or look present if the bluing is removed from a blued Thompson bolt?

I don't know the answer. These are just my thoughts on the subject.

All good stuff!!! 

Agree. Original "bright" bolts seem to have a bit more of a sheen or sparkle to them than later M1928A1 or M1A1 bolts that are not finished for whatever reason.

Years ago, I dropped a new condition blued Ordnance spare M1928A1 bolt into an overnight soak of Lime Away, my go to solution for gentle bluing removal. Sure enough, the blue disappeared, but the bolt turned a dull gray color. It certainly didn't resemble the exterior of an original "bright" bolt. 

[Doug Quaid]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:50 PM, Lawman9328 said:

ALCON,

I appreciate all of the replies and opinions.....but still haven't quite come up with a definitive answer.

As I mentioned, a lot of my confusion comes from the different (and VERY non-standardized) terminology used to describe "silver colored" bolts (i.e. - "nickel bolt", "nickel alloy bolt", "white bolt", "un-blued bolt", etc ,etc.)

In "AT" on page 298 it states that the original bolts were made from "a nickel plated steel alloy".  To me "plating" indicates an additional (and final) step in the manufacturing process and that step initially seems to have been eliminated because the same page it states that "late production replacement steel bolts were finished with a type III Black Oxide finish" (could that have been done OVER the nickel plating ??).  

Someone I asked told me that when you say a bolt is "in the white" it means the bolt is a steel bolt that hasn't been blued (maybe had it removed ??).  Sounds logical, but can anyone confirm ?   Maybe it was previously blued but someone wanted a more authentic look to their period gun or as TD stated.....white, bright or nickel Thompson bolts seem to always sell at a much higher price than a blued bolt.

 

I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about my new toy........nothing else to do while I wait in ATF purgatory !!!!  Besides, I'm an ex-intel guy.......I'm always going to have questions.

Gene (aka "Lawman9328")

As a guy who has read a lot of history books, I hereby offer the humble advice to not think of "stuff" that is written in books to be the gospel truth.

Once something is printed, people tend to cite it as The Truth, even though the whole book might be pure claptrap.

Remember that book that was written about the Sherman tank being a "death trap"?   That book was written by someone who does not understand what a "weapon system" is or what "military doctrine" is.   And now it's cited by people with the same lack of knowledge as if it's The Final Word.

If you read a book on Japanese swords, sooner or later the author will state that there is a film from WWII showing that a samurai sword is SO SHARP that it can cut a machine gun barrel in half.  Which is utterly absurd right on the face of it. 

People tend to make too many assumptions based on too little information, and they tend to repeat stuff that has no actual confirmation by hard data.

In this case, the process of elimination would indicate that the bolts are made of nickel steel.

If they were nickel plated, the nickel plating would be freckled, abraded and flaking off by now.  Because an SMG bolt gets worked hard, and 102 years is a long, long time.  I'll attach a picture of an old revolver with typical nickel plating wear from just finger grease and atmospheric moisture.

If these bolts were just regular carbon steel that was left unfinished (in the "white"), they would ALL be stained dull grey from finger grease and atmospheric moisture by now. And the worst samples would be showing orange rust and pitting.

Stainless steel was used for cutlery in 1920, not gun parts.  

So what rust-resistant metal was actually used for gun parts in 1920?   Nickel alloy steel.   

Plus, to hammer the lid down on it, someone apparently scrounged up the specs for the steel and it's... nickel steel.   If those specs are correct, the discussion is concluded, is it not?











 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[Doug Quaid]

On a side note, the "stuff" written in a collector book actually got me a nice discount on a Savage Commercial I bought.

The seller had a VERY early Savage Commercial on gunbroker that looks pretty much the same as any other very early Savage.  Dull blued finish, nice fit and finish but nothing fancy, etc.

Buyers on Gunbroker started harassing the seller, insisting that ALL Savage Commercials should be festooned with Colt parts and have a weird bright blue Colt barrel, because they read it in some book.

The seller got so disgusted with bickering with people that he gladly accepted a low-ball offer I made.   Everyone walked away happy.  I got a beautiful Savage Commercial for a 20% discount, the seller didn't have to bicker anymore, and the tire-kickers didn't get "ripped off" with a "fake" Commercial that didn't have a weird blue barrel.

The idea being promoted among the collector community at the time was that when a police department ordered a Savage in 1940, instead of just plucking a gun out of the British order and sending it off to the buyer, the factory would scrounge among the parts bins and lovingly build a fancy custom shop Wonder-1928 with beautiful colt parts on it. 

I worked in a military component factory (making pilot headsets) and from my experience in a factory setting, I estimate the odds of this story being true to be negative 100 million percent.  Nobody who is making tens of thousands of military contract guns would care what safety levers went on a handful of sales to police departments.

Also, since I got my Savage, I have seen about 15 other Savage Commercials that are IDENTICAL to mine.  I even started keeping a file of pictures of the other guns so I could defend my Savage from cries of fake-osity if I ever sell it.

I didn't write this to unfairly criticize any book or author.   Most researchers do their best with the information at hand.  The data set is constantly evolving as people find new sources of information.

One of the most interesting featured of the human brain is that it tends to fill in missing data from an internal value set.    To the degree that you literally cannot believe your own eyes at times.  Squares A and B are the exact same shade of grey.





 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Doug Quaid

[CadetMahoney]

    Guys , bolt number 4 .. did it withstand 50 thousand shots , or is it an unknown author 's model from a secret studio ) ?

[shadycon]

I wonder what the rest of the gun looked like.....................