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Australian Owen SMG


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I too recently took possession of my OWEN.
It came from the estate of a well known MG collector and author.
It took a lot of looking to come up with an example that was within my reach.
I wish I had that earlier pattern of barrel.
The story of the OWEN and how it was developed and entered service with Australia is well worth the read.

Richard

 

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Nice Richard!   I like the skeletonized lower!   Barrels do show up, but the one I can't seem to find is with a bayonet lug.  Haven't seen one yet?  I just lucked out on finding a magazine pouch in AU.  I don't think there are many survivors since they are pretty light duty fabric. The butt stock compartment had the original plastic oiler still in it.

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Nice set of Australian SMG's and accessories!

My OWEN has the lightweight wood butt and lacks the compartment for the oil bottle.
So far the few OWEN barrels I have seen were either shot out or had a bulge in them.
Not many OWEN parts kits ever showed up in the USA and I am guessing them came in from some place tropical.
About 1.5 years ago I watched a AUSTEN MKII at auction, it went a whole lot higher than I wanted to pay for it.
I had a chance to buy a MK1 AUSTEN, but it wasn't very well made (TUBE gun) so I passed.
Nice to have the magazine pouch, even nicer to have the magazines to fill the pouch!

Richard

 

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I have a couple spare barrels and yes, one is bulged, but that's the one I shoot since while not quite as accurate as the one pictured, it's good enough for a shooter bbl.   Indeed the kits all seem to be pretty rough....with the exception of the highly polished price tags!    I was going to bid on the MKII also, but like you the price was well above my interest level for that gun.  Interesting that your magazine housing and barrel release are rather crudely welded compared with others?  Late in the war or tube? 

All of this stuff is within reach, the only question is how much do you like it, and what other stuff is worth giving up?  The Austen that sold the friday was probably in range, but no screaming deal.   I didn't look that closely at it.  Not a gun I would need two of.

Magazines are no problem, they are available.  Let me know if you need a hand on that?

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My OWEN is a tube gun from a small name builder of long ago.
Last original gun I saw at Knob Creek sold for more than I paid for my BREN.
I was gone before I even had a chance to look it over.
I picked up OWEN bayonets long, long ago but have never run across a barrel or gun that I could mount one on.
Mine are the modified #1 MKIII type bayonets.
I am attaching the builders marking from the OWEN.

Richard

 

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Richard, what does an Owen bayonet look like (ie what was modified to fit the Owen)?

 

PS, I got to shoot your Owen in 2019, a great memory of mine of the former owner and the last I saw him.  

Thanks,

Ron

Edited by ron_brock
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On 5/14/2023 at 9:26 AM, johnsonlmg41 said:

I have a couple spare barrels and yes, one is bulged, but that's the one I shoot since while not quite as accurate as the one pictured, it's good enough for a shooter bbl.   Indeed the kits all seem to be pretty rough....with the exception of the highly polished price tags!    I was going to bid on the MKII also, but like you the price was well above my interest level for that gun.  Interesting that your magazine housing and barrel release are rather crudely welded compared with others?  Late in the war or tube? 

All of this stuff is within reach, the only question is how much do you like it, and what other stuff is worth giving up?  The Austen that sold the friday was probably in range, but no screaming deal.   I didn't look that closely at it.  Not a gun I would need two of.

Magazines are no problem, they are available.  Let me know if you need a hand on that?

I bought that Austen at Poulin's auction on Friday.  I was a phone bidder and I have to say that they the made entire process really easy.  $15K + 17.5% buyer premium for a "tube gun".  Probably around $18K including shipping.  About FMV.   I thought, I can either buy a tube gun now or wait for a C&R which may take years. They are not that common. 

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18 hours ago, APEXgunparts said:

My OWEN is a tube gun from a small name builder of long ago.
Last original gun I saw at Knob Creek sold for more than I paid for my BREN.
I was gone before I even had a chance to look it over.
I picked up OWEN bayonets long, long ago but have never run across a barrel or gun that I could mount one on.
Mine are the modified #1 MKIII type bayonets.
I am attaching the builders marking from the OWEN.

Richard

 

IMG_20230423_1751449.jpg

Richard, I have a Goldman reman Owen. Bought a few guns from him way back. Curious to know if your Owen is a welded or a new tube gun. At the time I bought my gun, he had several other welded guns but no new tube guns and I'm not sure he made any new tube guns. He made and registered quite a few different MGs, all rewelds,from what I've encountered over the years.

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22 hours ago, maxfaxdude said:

I bought that Austen at Poulin's auction on Friday.  I was a phone bidder and I have to say that they the made entire process really easy.  $15K + 17.5% buyer premium for a "tube gun".  Probably around $18K including shipping.  About FMV.   I thought, I can either buy a tube gun now or wait for a C&R which may take years. They are not that common. 

They are going to nick you for sales tax possibly?   Other than the two C+R guns at auction a while back (which were pretty expensive), I think I've seen two tube guns over the last 10 years for sale?  You probably made a good choice rather than wait?  I think it's a cool variation, handles really well, and the tools in the butt stock.....like all stupid gadgets.... attract my interest.  It's just a great use of unused space.    I think it handles better than an MP40.   Their shipping charges are very reasonable.  Good score!  Did you get the Schnell mags too?  Those went pretty cheap, but I didn't want to go any higher in the moment, but in hindsight...

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On 5/15/2023 at 6:06 PM, ron_brock said:

Richard, what does an Owen bayonet look like (ie what was modified to fit the Owen)?

 

PS, I got to shoot your Owen in 2019, a great memory of mine of the former owner and the last I saw him.  

Thanks,

Ron


Ron, interesting to "meet" people who have experience with guns that I have in my collection now.
That doesn't happen often!

Here is some info about the OWEN bayonets:

Owen Mk 1 Bayonet and Scabbard

When the Australian Owen sub-machine gun was introduced into service in 1941 it was not fitted to take a bayonet. In 1944 the decision was made to add a suitable bracket so that a bayonet could be mounted. Earlier, in 1942, the manufacturers of the Owen, Lysaghts of Port Kembla, had developed a new model of the gun. This Mark II Owen gun had an accompanying bayonet designed to fit it. This was an unusual design that fixed over the muzzle compensator without any additional standard being fitted to the weapon. Only 200 examples of this model of bayonet were produced.

In 1944 the bayonet selected for use with the sub-machine gun was a shortened version of the standard Pattern 1907, or No. 1 Mark I bayonet. The special requirements of jungle warfare had led to the search of weapons and equipment suitable for the very difficult conditions it entailed. In the effort to lighten the soldier's load, a shorter and lighter rifle was deemed desirable.

In 1944 Australia produced 100 Trials Shortened and Lightened No. 1 rifles at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory, along with 100 short bayonets. The rifle was not adopted for use, but it was this bayonet that was selected for fitting to the Owen sub-machine gun.

It was officially approved on the 31st July 1944 and sealed on the 16th August 1944. The bayonet was designated Bayonet Sub-Machine Gun (Aust.) No.1 Mk.I. The only difference between this model and the Pattern 1907 is the new 10 inch blade with a fuller that is only 5 inches long.

A second model was also approved and sealed on the same dates, being designated the Bayonet Sub-Machine Gun (Aust.) No.1 Mk II. Originally this design was to have a new made 8 inch blade with a 3½ inch fuller, but all known models in existence were in fact cut down form original Pattern 1907 bayonets with the 17 inch blade. The blade, with a 12½ inch fuller, was cut down and the point reshaped. For this reason the fuller is longer than 3½ inches and thins down towards the point of the bayonet.

Both models were agreed upon on the 6th April 1945, several months after the original patterns were first sealed. But on the 13th April it was decided to adopt the 10 inch Mk. I as the standard length.

Owen gun production ceased in September 1944 after approximately 45,000 had been produced. Very few, if any were manufactured with the bayonet bracket fitted. They began to be fitted from 1945 by Australian Army Ordnance. The majority of Owens received them when they were Factory Thorough Repaired (F.T.R.'d) during the period 1946-1950 and 1955.

Since the muzzle compensator and bayonet standard of the Owen and the bayonet boss and standard of the SMLE rifle have the same measurements, the bayonets were interchangeable between the two weapons. During the Korean War the shorter bayonet was known as the universal bayonet and was issued with the rifle. The Owen gun was not withdrawn from frontline service with the Australian Army until 1966.

During 1944-45 the bayonets, both Marks I and II, were manufactured at the Orange Rifle Factory No. 3, Orange, New South Wales. In the early 1950s, when it was feared that the Korean conflict might spread, production recommenced, this time at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory. Markings on the bayonet identify the manufacturer. Orange made bayonets have stamped into the left hand ricasso the month and year of the date of acceptance, eg. 11 ‘44, 3 ‘45. Above this is stamped the original pattern acknowledgement for the P 1907 bayonet.

On the right hand ricasso is stamped the bending mark “X”. “OA” and a single broad arrow, the government acceptance mark. The wood grips are stamped "SLAZ", flowed by the last two digits of the year of manufacture. This stands for Slazengers (Australia) Pty. Ltd Sydney, the company that manufactured the woodwork. “OA” was also stamped into the end of the pommel, just below the mortise slot. These markings are the same for both Marks. Most Mark II bayonets are dated 10 '44, but some other dates do exist - 9 '44 and 11 '44 have been seen. This is the date when the bayonet was made in its original (17 inch) form, not the date when converted, which was months later.

The original 100 Trials Shortened and Lightened Bayonets were also produced at Orange and differed from the production models only in that they had only the maker's mark and bend mark stamped into the face of the right ricasso. They did not feature all of the other acceptance markings since they were not subject to the standard inspection and acceptance procedures.

Bayonets manufactured at Lithgow in the 1950s feature different markings. On the left ricasso is an inspector's stamp, eg. the broad arrow of government acceptance and the last two digits of the year of manufacture. The month is no longer included ie. 52, 53, 54. The right ricasso is marked with the bend mark. Next to MA 53, “MA” alone can also be found. Even an example without either version on the right hand ricasso has also been noted. Whatever year of manufacture is on the bayonet, all that have this mark are stamped MA 53, even when made in 52 or 54. The grips are marked "SLAZ" and the pommel is marked “MA” or “OA” if a part held in store, of Orange manufacture, has been utilised at this later date.

The scabbard issued with the bayonet was the same as the standard Pattern 1907 scabbard, except for a shorter leather body being used. The chape and locket is marked “OA” or “MA” depending on manufacturer. The leather is stamped ‘MANGROVITE’ followed by the last two years of manufacture. The leather was supplied by the Mangrovite Belting Pty. Ltd. J. Ludowici Ltd, Sydney.

In 1946 the nomenclature was altered. The designation of the Owen Sub-Machine Gun was changed to the Owen Machine Carbine. On the 25th April 1947 the Bayonet Sub-Machine Gun (Aust.) No.1 Mk.II became the Bayonet Machine Carbine (Aust. No.1 Mk.I/I. It is not known exactly how many bayonets of both types were produced. Records show that 19,000 had been manufactured as of the 16th April 1945. A total of 34,662 Owen Machine Carbines were F.T.R.d, so it is assumed that at least this many bayonets were produced.



Article courtesy of the ‘Armourer’ magazine.

Richard

Edited by APEXgunparts
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On 5/16/2023 at 7:10 AM, BRMCII said:

Richard, I have a Goldman reman Owen. Bought a few guns from him way back. Curious to know if your Owen is a welded or a new tube gun. At the time I bought my gun, he had several other welded guns but no new tube guns and I'm not sure he made any new tube guns. He made and registered quite a few different MGs, all rewelds,from what I've encountered over the years.


Last night I pulled the OWEN out of the safe and looked at it very closely.
The welds around the mag well and barrel lock are (painfully) obvious.
Looking at the tube body I see no signs that it was ever cut and welded back together.
It is a relatively thick walled tube, tapered internally at the front end to fit the barrel.
That thick tubing makes the gun relatively heavy, compared to the STEN's and STERLING.
I am sure that in combat it was a rugged gun and took a lot of abuse and kept running.

Richard

 

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Yes, very heavy wall (I forgot the thickness, but 1.5 OD.  You need that to cut the taper in for the barrel.  The good news that while the welds may not be pristine and smooth, not much effort would be required to add steel/ smooth them out.  As for the finish, well....that's the beauty of the un-beautiful, you don't have to put much lipstick back on to make the pig look good.   It's a working man's gun, functional and strong.   An MP5, she's not, but then again you're not replacing extractor springs every 1000 rounds and you can drive tent pegs with the Owen in a pinch.

In looking at the Austen in the Poulins, I wonder if it will need a bit of work?  The stock isn't folded all the way up in the pic (over the front grip).  That dimension is pretty tight with limited clearance.  Might need a bit of smithing to make it work, but it's worth the effort IMO.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/16/2023 at 5:58 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

They are going to nick you for sales tax possibly?   Other than the two C+R guns at auction a while back (which were pretty expensive), I think I've seen two tube guns over the last 10 years for sale?  You probably made a good choice rather than wait?  I think it's a cool variation, handles really well, and the tools in the butt stock.....like all stupid gadgets.... attract my interest.  It's just a great use of unused space.    I think it handles better than an MP40.   Their shipping charges are very reasonable.  Good score!  Did you get the Schnell mags too?  Those went pretty cheap, but I didn't want to go any higher in the moment, but in hindsight...

No sales tax to NV yet!  I didn't see the Schnell mags...I'll have to check and see what they sold for.

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On 5/25/2023 at 6:32 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

Yes, very heavy wall (I forgot the thickness, but 1.5 OD.  You need that to cut the taper in for the barrel.  The good news that while the welds may not be pristine and smooth, not much effort would be required to add steel/ smooth them out.  As for the finish, well....that's the beauty of the un-beautiful, you don't have to put much lipstick back on to make the pig look good.   It's a working man's gun, functional and strong.   An MP5, she's not, but then again you're not replacing extractor springs every 1000 rounds and you can drive tent pegs with the Owen in a pinch.

In looking at the Austen in the Poulins, I wonder if it will need a bit of work?  The stock isn't folded all the way up in the pic (over the front grip).  That dimension is pretty tight with limited clearance.  Might need a bit of smithing to make it work, but it's worth the effort IMO.

The Austen...I guess I'll find out when I get the gun.   So far, I've had very good luck with all of the machineguns I've bought at auction.   

 

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  • 6 months later...

Richard, I saw that owen at the creek and talked to the seller for a while with a buddy of mine who has an owen. Seller said he had 2 and so he was selling one. I went back later when I didn't see it on the table any longer and he  said a gentleman came along and looked it over and said I'll take it. He didn't even try to get a better price. Buyer was a commonwealth collector and had been looking for an owen for a while and wanted this one. I forget what he was asking, but if I remember correctly it was $35,000.

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