Thought I found a bargain S&W 76, but no

[BillinBama]

I'd never really considered a 76 , no reason pro or con, just never on my radar, but after reading the posts on this forum and some other sites, I decided to investigate what waa available and see if I might buy one.  There are a couple of GB but I usually don't consider that site for Class III items, So, a Google search pulled up JCS Gun Shop in Iowa City, Iowa, good looking website, lots of crypto mentions, and they have two model 76's, both under $10,000.  Unbelievable.  I looked at their other C3 guns and almost all were below market price, many WELL below.  Plus, they offer a 30% discount if you pay with crypto.  I set up an account and started the buy process for one of the 76's just to see what would happen, got all the way to the pay part, and they offered me 10% off is I paid with PayPal F&F.  Things didn't seem right, even though the website is really pretty well designed , so I searched for reviews, and almost everything I found was negative, but my first impression kept coming back, "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is."  I haven't seen it mentioned on Sturm as a scam, maybe I should post it, but I definitely believe it is.

 

Oh, I also have been in discussion via email with a guy over a FBP bolt/recoil assy after getting burned by a hacker over an MP40 one, so I'm really skittish.  This one was just slightly below the going price but I kept hesitating.  The seller sent me copies of his license, passport and C&R license, but I asked him to call me.  His ID showed residence in MA, but I received a call from Idaho.  Not that unusual since everybody keeps their original number when moving, but his accent was so thick (middle eastern) that I could hardly understand anything he said.  Bu-bye.  I'm getting to the point of not buying anything except from known websites and a few trusted friends in the CIII community.  So take a fool's advice and be careful out there!

[StrangeRanger]

When it comes to the 76. I am NOT a fan.  Before you spend/waste your money on one, I strongly urge you to read Frank Iannamico's book The Smith & Wesson Model 76 Submachine Gun, especially the troubleshooting section.  It may or may not change your mind but you should be well aware of the reliability issues.  I bought one of Burgess's 76 clones and ended up selling it off pretty quickly.  Between the reliability issues and the design compromises there were just too many downsides, some of which could be fixed with an infusion of better designed replacement parts and some of which were probably incurable.

As always YMMV

Edited May 18 by StrangeRanger

[Lewisfan]

Lots of website scams.  Bargains galore!  Buyer beware.  

[Rekraps]

23 hours ago, BillinBama said:

I'd never really considered a 76 , no reason pro or con, just never on my radar, but after reading the posts on this forum and some other sites, I decided to investigate what waa available and see if I might buy one.  There are a couple of GB but I usually don't consider that site for Class III items, So, a Google search pulled up JCS Gun Shop in Iowa City, Iowa, good looking website, lots of crypto mentions, and they have two model 76's, both under $10,000.  Unbelievable.  I looked at their other C3 guns and almost all were below market price, many WELL below.  Plus, they offer a 30% discount if you pay with crypto.  I set up an account and started the buy process for one of the 76's just to see what would happen, got all the way to the pay part, and they offered me 10% off is I paid with PayPal F&F.  Things didn't seem right, even though the website is really pretty well designed , so I searched for reviews, and almost everything I found was negative, but my first impression kept coming back, "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is."  I haven't seen it mentioned on Sturm as a scam, maybe I should post it, but I definitely believe it is.

 

Oh, I also have been in discussion via email with a guy over a FBP bolt/recoil assy after getting burned by a hacker over an MP40 one, so I'm really skittish.  This one was just slightly below the going price but I kept hesitating.  The seller sent me copies of his license, passport and C&R license, but I asked him to call me.  His ID showed residence in MA, but I received a call from Idaho.  Not that unusual since everybody keeps their original number when moving, but his accent was so thick (middle eastern) that I could hardly understand anything he said.  Bu-bye.  I'm getting to the point of not buying anything except from known websites and a few trusted friends in the CIII community.  So take a fool's advice and be careful out there!

I was there almost a year ago... same story, very well priced but things just did not seem right. So here are my thoughts, very infrequently does a NGA subgun come up for sale at a "bargin" price. Why would they? The guns sell quick and the market price is the market price. Andrewski told me that the only "deals" out there, and they are really only for people who  can do their own machine work and restorations, are what he calls "junk" guns, rusted, broken, mismatched  and overall just shitty. Then, their discounted price is in fact "Market" for the condition and gun. It all works out.

[Rekraps]

22 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

When it comes to the 76. I am NOT a fan.  Before you spend/waste your money on one, I strongly urge you to read Frank Iannamico's book The Smith & Wesson Model 76 Submachine Gun, especially the troubleshooting section.  It may or may not change your mind but you should be well aware of the reliability issues.  I bought one of Burgess's 76 clones and ended up selling it off pretty quickly.  Between the reliability issues and the design compromises there were just too many downsides, some of which could be fixed with an infusion of better designed replacement parts and some of which were probably incurable.

As always YMMV

Hey! My 76's run great.... until they don't!

[StrangeRanger]

The last thing you need in any firearm is to wonder just before you pull the trigger is to wonder "Will it go bang?"

The second to last thing you need in a full-auto is to wonder "Will it burst-fire or single?"  As I found out the 76 is totally unpredictable in this regard.  Add in the crappy sights and the wobbly stock and you have a train wreck in the making.  All of this stuff can be upgraded at a cost but it looked like money down the proverbial rat hole.  I just said screw it, let this be someone else's problem child.  Like I said in the PM, the Army wanted an inexpensive SMG; instead they got a cheap one.

[Mike Hammer]

5 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

The last thing you need in any firearm is to wonder just before you pull the trigger is to wonder "Will it go bang?"

The second to last thing you need in a full-auto is to wonder "Will it burst-fire or single?"  As I found out the 76 is totally unpredictable in this regard.  Add in the crappy sights and the wobbly stock and you have a train wreck in the making.  All of this stuff can be upgraded at a cost but it looked like money down the proverbial rat hole.  I just said screw it, let this be someone else's problem child.  Like I said in the PM, the Army wanted an inexpensive SMG; instead they got a cheap one.

Well you really didn’t have an original S&W 76 but a knockoff gun. My original S&W has never  failed even with converted mags. The seals wouldn’t have used them back in the day if they had problems with them. I am unfamiliar with the quality of the S&W copies but I would be interested in hearing from other owners as to reliability and function problems and wether they are actually S&W produced guns or copies.

[BillinBama]

Followup to my original post,  the guy with the FBP bolt sent me a picture of himself holding his license, said, "I'm legit, man." So I asked him to send me a picture of him holding the parts. That was two days ago and I've heard nothing from him since.

[StrangeRanger]

1 hour ago, Mike Hammer said:

Well you really didn’t have an original S&W 76 but a knockoff gun. My original S&W has never  failed even with converted mags. The seals wouldn’t have used them back in the day if they had problems with them. I am unfamiliar with the quality of the S&W copies but I would be interested in hearing from other owners as to reliability and function problems and wether they are actually S&W produced guns or copies.

I might consider that to be the case except that Rekraps' original S&W made 76 had exactly the same trigger bar failure.  Frank Iannamico details this failure in his book and does not limit it to 76 clones.  Scott Andrey's website is still up and he discussed it in his troubleshooting section, again no mention of just applying to clones.  John Andrewski says he repairs about 20 a year and told me it would last about 5K rounds.  Your success with your 76 may be the outlier.

[Rekraps]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:08 PM, StrangeRanger said:

I might consider that to be the case except that Rekraps' original S&W made 76 had exactly the same trigger bar failure.  Frank Iannamico details this failure in his book and does not limit it to 76 clones.  Scott Andrey's website is still up and he discussed it in his troubleshooting section, again no mention of just applying to clones.  John Andrewski says he repairs about 20 a year and told me it would last about 5K rounds.  Your success with your 76 may be the outlier.

All good points. Andrewski now has my FCG and will repair the trigger bar to make it a solid shooter. He said that his repair will include hardening the end of the bar to  just less than that of the sear, so the gun will be reliable for as long as i will be shooting it.

Now, let's consider that when the 76 was rolled out, it was not intended to be a long term shooter, it was a specialty SMG that did not need to last 10K rounds. The US needed something quickly and as SR says, that's what they got. But, just because of that, it does not mean the gun  will not work and be reliable. With the trigger bar repaired, the gun will shoot as good as any other SMG.

[BillinBama]

Many of our sub guns were originally designed to last a short while, M3, STEN, and others. Get through the war, that's all, sometimes not even that long. It's a testament both to the stout manufacturing and the ingenuity of people like the Andrewski's that they are still running.

[Rekraps]

2 hours ago, BillinBama said:

Many of our sub guns were originally designed to last a short while, M3, STEN, and others. Get through the war, that's all, sometimes not even that long. It's a testament both to the stout manufacturing and the ingenuity of people like the Andrewski's that they are still running.

You got that right, I often look at my M3 and think, "What a piece of junk!", I mean really, the weld seams are terrible, the wire stock is not very good and the sights just suck. But then again, for $12 what do you expect?

Then I look at my Thompson, my Lanchester, my MP18 and MP40 and think, "Now those are well made guns!" Even the PPSH, made during the height of desperation are well made guns.

Personally, I think the M76 is better constructed than the M3 (I own both). The M76 has a single piece tube with lans, the bolt is robust and the operating system in total is very simple and easy to manage. 

If my memory serves correct, all the "U" series M76's (and that is virtually all that are registered) are commercial units. I have no idea if the military ones ("O" series?) were manufactured to different specs.

Anyway, as I was adding to my collection, I wanted to get as many different types of open bolt SMG's as I could find. The only one I shy away from is the STEN, only because I just can't get past how cheap those things look. Yes, I know they shoot fine, but to me, they are embarrassing. 

 

[StrangeRanger]

The problems with the 76 aren't in the construction they are in the design.

IMNSHO the Sten is in most ways a better gun than the 76, it's just butt-ugly.  But I seriously doubt that aesthetics were a consideration of the British military in 1940

[hkg3k]

22 hours ago, Rekraps said:

The only one I shy away from is the STEN, only because I just can't get past how cheap those things look. Yes, I know they shoot fine, but to me, they are embarrassing. 

Looks aside, the STEN is one of the most historic SMGs ever made.  Right there with the Thompson, MP40, PPSh and Uzi, IMO.

Find yourself a nicely put together Mk5...you won't be disappointed 😉

 

Edited May 22 by hkg3k

[StrangeRanger]

I've had an itch for a Mk II with a loop stock ever since I first saw The Guns of Navarone back when I was in grade school.  So far I have resisted the urge even though (thanks to the Lanchester) I have a pile of Sten mags and an Austen loader.  Mk Vs may be nicer but they lack the charisma

[hkg3k]

1 hour ago, StrangeRanger said:

Mk Vs may be nicer but they lack the charisma

Says you 😉

[Rekraps]

On 5/21/2023 at 4:04 PM, StrangeRanger said:

The problems with the 76 aren't in the construction they are in the design.

IMNSHO the Sten is in most ways a better gun than the 76, it's just butt-ugly.  But I seriously doubt that aesthetics were a consideration of the British military in 1940

As always a great perspective. I think we all know this stuff we'll, and personal preference drives our opinions!

[Rekraps]

4 hours ago, hkg3k said:

Looks aside, the STEN is one of the most historic SMGs ever made.  Right there with the Thompson, MP40, PPSh and Uzi, IMO.

Find yourself a nicely put together Mk5...you won't be disappointed 😉

 

Again I stand corrected! 
 

No excuse sir!

[NFA amnesty]

 

 

 

 

 

 

My all original C&R British Sten, early production, never updated.  I have the T-Stock it came with. but added this loop stock which fits me better.

 

Edited May 23 by NFA amnesty

[Rekraps]

9 hours ago, NFA amnesty said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

My all original C&R British Sten, early production, never updated.  I have the T-Stock it came with. but added this loop stock which fits me better.

 

A very nice gun. I like the look with the wood stock also. Maybe I'll reconsider, after all they are still affordable... sort of.

[StrangeRanger]

Then there's the other end of the Sten quality spectrum

(Warning clicking on this link may cause uncontrollable nausea)

https://gunspot.com/auction/10066/sten-mkii-transferable-machine-gun/

[NFA amnesty]

On 5/23/2023 at 9:38 AM, StrangeRanger said:

Then there's the other end of the Sten quality spectrum

(Warning clicking on this link may cause uncontrollable nausea)

https://gunspot.com/auction/10066/sten-mkii-transferable-machine-gun/

In defense of Richie, I bet when he cobbled that Sten together, the tax stamp cost more than the weapon.  If a person got it cheap enough, might be worth the purchase as Andrewski could work his magic.  I believe the reserve has been met and around 1500 at this point, but sure if will go much higher.  Not worth 10k however.....no way.

[Got Uzi]

I’d say $5k is max on it as it would need some work to make it into a decent gun. The welds need ground out and redone. I’m kicking around bidding on it so I could redo it myself. 

[Rekraps]

Man, you guys have more patience and skills than I. 

[StrangeRanger]

10 hours ago, NFA amnesty said:

In defense of Richie, I bet when he cobbled that Sten together, the tax stamp cost more than the weapon.  If a person got it cheap enough, might be worth the purchase as Andrewski could work his magic.  I believe the reserve has been met and around 1500 at this point, but sure if will go much higher.  Not worth 10k however.....no way.

Here's what a $10K Sten looks like (not mine, don't know the seller but it's a DLO not a "Richie") https://www.gunbroker.com/item/988943257