Top open bolt SMG's by quality and operation!

[Rekraps]

Okay, so this has kinda popped its head up on many of the different threads, so because it's Sunday, and there are not a lot of posts, I thought it might generate some cerebral exchange of thoughts and opinions on the topic.

The question is this: Which pistol caliber SMG, (Open bolt only you MP5 dogs!) do you rank as best in quality and operation. I'd ask that you rank at least four, maybe five and add a short note as to why you chose as such.

I'll start this off;

• No 1: MP38 Just a great overall gun, excellent quality and great operation, fully representative of superb German manufacturing.
• No 2: Swedish K (M45) What can we say! Everyone loves the "K" and it is excellent quality and super reliable operation and looks sooo cool!
• No 3: PPSH 41 Another great gun, amazing continuance of quality considering how many were made, and 100% reliable.. keeps on chugging.
• No 4: Thompson M1A1 A final variant of what was at first a too heavy gun, but this version is gorgeous, great quality and super reliable!
• No 5: Sterling L2A3 Totally forgotten amongst collectors, the pinnacle of SMG technology. Gorgeous, super reliable and uses the best magazines ever made.
• No 6: M.P. 18,I, & MP 28,II Not well known, but a superb quality early SMG's that are darned good guns and easy to operate.

I could go on and on...

What do you guys think?

[StrangeRanger]

Seriously?

The Shpagin is on your best list but the Uzi and the Beretta 28 Series are not?

[Rekraps]

11 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

Seriously?

The Shpagin is on your best list but the Uzi and the Beretta 28 Series are not?

My list! Yours?

[yohuang]

If I vote, I select US .45acp M3 or M3A1. There are a few advantages:

1. Being a C&R, it can be sent directly to the C&R licensee upon ATF approval.

2. It is an all-steel structure, only s/n is on the magazine well. Other numbers are parts numbers. Spare parts are available and there is no mismatching issue.

3. Barrel is easily replaceable. You can shoot it without wearing the original barrel coming with the gun. Many submachine guns have fixed barrel, and some have impractical replaceable barrel. 

4. Firing rate is low. The sound is like a lawn mower. Low rate submachine gun can be controlled easier.

5. Not cheap, but it comes at certain amount of money, it could also go with similar amount.. the cost is aligned with other C&R submachine guns. Not really a outstanding concern.

6. Bolt moving on a pair of steel rods, no attrition between moving bolt and the steel receiver. It's very smooth and reliable. Single feeding magazine is well made.

 

[Rekraps]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:27 AM, yohuang said:

If I vote, I select US .45acp M3 or M3A1. There are a few advantages:

1. Being a C&R, it can be sent directly to the C&R licensee upon ATF approval.

2. It is an all-steel structure, only s/n is on the magazine well. Other numbers are parts numbers. Spare parts are available and there is no mismatching issue.

3. Barrel is easily replaceable. You can shoot it without wearing the original barrel coming with the gun. Many submachine guns have fixed barrel, and some have impractical replaceable barrel. 

4. Firing rate is low. The sound is like a lawn mower. Low rate submachine gun can be controlled easier.

5. Not cheap, but it comes at certain amount of money, it could also go with similar amount.. the cost is aligned with other C&R submachine guns. Not really a outstanding concern.

6. Bolt moving on a pair of steel rods, no attrition between moving bolt and the steel receiver. It's very smooth and reliable. Single feeding magazine is well made.

 

I do like my M3 and because of all the reasons you noted above. I will tell you however, as the owner of a "K", MP40 and PPSH, they are really good guns also. Now, the M3's issue in my opinion, are the ergonomics. That gun just does not feel real good when you shoulder it. I mean sight pictures are tough and it's just sooo big!

[Colt Chopper]

1- Thompson

2- Grease Gun

3- Uzi

4- MP-40

[yohuang]

23 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Now, the M3's issue in my opinion, are the ergonomics. That gun just does not feel real good when you shoulder it. I mean sight pictures are tough and it's just sooo big!

M3 is a little bit too heavy,  relatively speaking, it is still lighter than Thompson.

Its sights is crude, that's true as well. But still being practical. SMG is not an accurate weapon for a single bullet, the emphasis is on short range group accuracy.  From that perspective, M3 bullet grouping is good due to its low recoil, the barrel does not jump a lot in full auto shooting.

Let me see a few types in this topic. For me, the K is out of consideration, I don't like its rectangular stock.

Sterling could be fun. But most of them are "tube guns" in the US. I have no interest in tube guns. 

Other few types are classical SMGs. They are great.

[yohuang]

Someone made a video on M3A1 shooting a few days ago. $15 gun.

 

[Mongo]

Beretta PM12S

Beretta 38A

Swedish K

Sterling

Owen

 

[1gewehr]

Sterling L2A3 - Ergonomics, reliability, smooth action, easy to shoot well, easy to maintain, and the best SMG magazines ever!

Swedish 'K' M45 - Reliability, accuracy, smooth action, easy to maintain, 2nd best magazines.

Beretta 1938 - Classy, accurate, smooth action, natural pointer.

PPS43 - Simple, reliable, points well, ergonomics are surprisingly good!

Thompson M1A1 - The best Thompson as a useful weapon.  Good magazine design, reliable, accurate, and it's a .45!

Honorable Mentions:  Uzi, Beretta PM-12s, MP40, MAT-49

 

[BillinBama]

I have no experience with several on y'all 's lists, but of those I've owned/fired, my preferences are:

 

1. Swedish K, mine digest everything loaded into it, smooth and reliable. 

2. M3 Grease Gun, I just love shooting mine.

3. M1A1 Thompson, big, heavy, little recoil and old world craftsmanship. 

4. MP 40, another great gun and probably equal in my opinion to the Thompson, but for the wonky stock.

5. Uzi, good design, compact,  reliable.

 

 

[Merry Ploughboy]

1. 1921 Thompson - Delayed blowback smooth operation, superb steel and wood finish, a panache unmatched by any other subgun, "The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar".

2. 1928 "Navy" Thompson.  See 1. above plus the added reciprocating mass reduces the rate of fire so that even raw recruits to the force could handle them.

3.  Who cares.

 

ETA: I used to own a Navy Thompson and sold it to help fund an M16 that I shoot with 9mm and .22LR as shooting much 5.56x45 ammo is too costly for my budget..  I wish I could have afforded to keep the Navy Thompson as well, but something had to go.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Merry Ploughboy

[NFA amnesty]

This is a very difficult question, because I can only go by what I own.   I am going to miss some weapons that might be superior such as a russian burp gun, never owned one, but heard they are a really good sub gun.  My Dad sure did not like them during the Korean War!   I also don't own an UZI so that is another miss.

So I am going to list 1 to 5 with my current collection of open bolt sub guns.

1.  Swedish K

2.  MP 40

3.  M3A1

4.  Thompson M1A1

5.  Sten Mk2

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by NFA amnesty

[StrangeRanger]

Why all the love from sp many of you for the Thompson M1A1?  The Thompson M1 is a much superior design.  Unlike the fixed firing pin M1A1 it cannot have an out-of-battery discharge.  In all other respects they are the same.

[Merry Ploughboy]

3 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Why all the love from so many of you for the Thompson M1A1?  The Thompson M1 is a much superior design.  Unlike the fixed firing pin M1A1 it cannot have an out-of-battery discharge.  In all other respects they are the same.

With the fixed firing pin, the M1A1 gains advanced primer ignition which provides a lower rate of fire that some find more controllable.  Also, the ears on the M1A1 rear sight reduce the likelihood of bending or snagging the rear sight.  On the other hand, the milled M1 controls are classier than the pin versions on the M1A1.

MHO, YMMV, etc.  Be well.

[StrangeRanger]

Some M1s have milled levers (like mine) and some have pinned; some have L sights and some have wings (like mine). 

There may be a difference in the rate of fire but I cannot hear or feel it.

 

[Got Uzi]

I watched that video on the M3A1 and it wasn't $15 in 1944/1945 to produce.  There are only a couple of his videos that I actually care for, but that's just me.

 

As for the question as to what "open bolt SMG's are best" in peoples minds, here are the top 3 in no particular order:

Uzi

Sterling MK4

Swedish K

Having seen these guns all in action at Knob Creek in the National SubGun Match, they all ran great in their stock configurations.  Since I have to have a make this a five item list I'll add the following for consideration to fill the last two slots-M1A1 Thompson, M3/M3A1 Grease Gun, Beretta 38a series, Beretta PM12, MP38/MP40 and Walther RPK/RPL. 

 

It will still be an interesting test to put any of these up against the MP5 for what was the "best" subgun" but you have to also consider the era these were all made compared to the MP5.  Most of the open bolt guns had their roots in the 1930's-early to mid 1960's.  You also have to look at the fact when the MP5 came out, it was a new concept of subgun design, taken from rifles and scaled down.  Having handled and fired all the ones on the list so far, including my own list, they all have their pros and cons, so there isn't a "perfect" open bolt SMG, the designers kept taking ideas from previous designs and improving.

[Rekraps]

22 hours ago, NFA amnesty said:

This is a very difficult question, because I can only go by what I own.   I am going to miss some weapons that might be superior such as a russian burp gun, never owned one, but heard they are a really good sub gun.  My Dad sure did not like them during the Korean War!   I also don't own an UZI so that is another miss.

So I am going to list 1 to 5 with my current collection of open bolt sub guns.

1.  Swedish K

2.  MP 40

3.  M3A1

4.  Thompson M1A1

5.  Sten Mk2

 

Well if you don't own it then it must not be good! 

[Rekraps]

17 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

I watched that video on the M3A1 and it wasn't $15 in 1944/1945 to produce.  There are only a couple of his videos that I actually care for, but that's just me.

 

As for the question as to what "open bolt SMG's are best" in peoples minds, here are the top 3 in no particular order:

Uzi

Sterling MK4

Swedish K

Having seen these guns all in action at Knob Creek in the National SubGun Match, they all ran great in their stock configurations.  Since I have to have a make this a five item list I'll add the following for consideration to fill the last two slots-M1A1 Thompson, M3/M3A1 Grease Gun, Beretta 38a series, Beretta PM12, MP38/MP40 and Walther RPK/RPL. 

 

It will still be an interesting test to put any of these up against the MP5 for what was the "best" subgun" but you have to also consider the era these were all made compared to the MP5.  Most of the open bolt guns had their roots in the 1930's-early to mid 1960's.  You also have to look at the fact when the MP5 came out, it was a new concept of subgun design, taken from rifles and scaled down.  Having handled and fired all the ones on the list so far, including my own list, they all have their pros and cons, so there isn't a "perfect" open bolt SMG, the designers kept taking ideas from previous designs and improving.

Great points and I excluded the MP5 as it is a closed bolt SMG, and probably the best SMG ever designed and fielded. But.... for open bolt guns the list seems to be fairly consistent and the "K" somehow always seems to find its way on it!

[jim c 351]

Open bolt-- M1A1 Thompson.

Closed bolt---M2 Carbine

Thats all folks.

Jim C

[johnsonlmg41]

Thompsons....by far are one of the worst ergonomic messes on the market and rank near last of all the subguns I own. .45 acp, one of the worst subgun cartridges ever fielded.  High recoil, low range and low penetration.  The most dangerous gun I've ever seen at a range with steel plates.

Anything full stock/ German leads the list (long list)  MP18 being the starter of it all.

Most beretta's are good to go LF57, 38 series

Of course my 2 Ausssie guns are good and the Austen outranks the MP40 IMO, all the benefits/attributes and no stock wobble.

Lanchester is a much nicer gun than a Sterling and if a mag conversion would be done it would be by far better.

Did I mention German subguns?  LOL  They are all excellent with the MP40 being the worst, but still good, just not nearly as good as the rest!

I'm a fan of the Uzi and Stens, but they are mostly workhorses.....always there, always work, just not exciting.

 

Be another year before I see a swedish K in the stable, but I'm sure it's fine gun.

 

 

 

[NFA amnesty]

12 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Well if you don't own it then it must not be good! 

Well you are too kind, but it comes down to funds.  I still kick myself for not purchasing a vector uzi back in 98 for 2300 dollars.  My buddies were doing a group purchase to get further discounts but of course I did not want to spend the money at that time.  Oh well, such a financial genius I am!! 

[Got Uzi]

I can say that I have either owned, own, or fired the ones on my list or most the ones discussed here. It comes down to personal preference. I base my list on what I have seen in SubGun matches and personal experience. 

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Have to agree with johnsonlmg41 on the Thompson. They are a well built gun but horrible to shoot and not a good round. I hardly shoot mine except with the 22 conversion which makes it much more fun and cheap to shoot. As far as guns I own the most pleasant and reliable is my MP38. It has never misfired the whole time I have owned it. Anyone can shoot it effectively and it’s not very heavy. My favorite to play around with is my PPSH41. It is comfortable to shoot and works well. I have shot many others such as Beretta 38’s, grease guns, uzi etc and all work well. Sten Mk2 work well and are light weight and fun to shoot. As far as a WWII era gun if I had to choose one to carry and fight with it would be a PPS43…light weight, handles well. Great mags, field strips in seconds easily with no tools and nice rate of fire.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Roland the Thompsongunner

[Rekraps]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:45 AM, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Have to agree with johnsonlmg41 on the Thompson. They are a well built gun but horrible to shoot and not a good round. I hardly shoot mine except with the 22 conversion which makes it much more fun and cheap to shoot. As far as guns I own the most pleasant and reliable is my MP38. It has never misfired the whole time I have owned it. Anyone can shoot it effectively and it’s not very heavy. My favorite to play around with is my PPSH41. It is comfortable to shoot and works well. I have shot many others such as Beretta 38’s, grease guns, uzi etc and all work well. Sten Mk2 work well and are light weight and fun to shoot. As far as a WWII era gun if I had to choose one to carry and fight with it would be a PPS43…light weight, handles well. Great mags, field strips in seconds easily with no tools and nice rate of fire.

Well I was waiting for the PPS43 to sneak in there. I have toyed with the idea of getting one but just can't pull the trigger. To me, and i realize most of the subguns were super mass produced in times of hardship, it is just flimsy and cheap, kinda like the STEN and I just can't bring myself to parting with the cash.