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1928A1: Acquired from a friend's estate


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   When you say “fire damaged” what does that mean? If the springs were all “shot” as a result of a fire, then the receiver must also have been damaged and could be brittle or soft either one of which could make the gun unsafe to fire. Since the gun in the picture has un-burnt wood I assume some restoration has already been done? Wood replaced? Gun reblued? What’s up with the Genuine Mattel” sticker? Is this a joke?

Bob

Edited by reconbob
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Yes, my friend put the Mattel sticker on as a joke. I intend to leave it.

Cadmus parkerized everything and added new furniture in 1966, and sold it for $99.50.  My friend Amnestied it in 1968, along with 13 other weapons.

The receiver tests sound, just pitted. I hand polished as much as feasible without damaging markings.

An SOT smith friend and I have been flogging it over.  It fires, but not consistently, and the aftermarket but semi spec barrel seems to be the weak point.

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   When you try the next barrel remove the grip mount. Now you can screw in the new barrel hand-tight and test fire and you are not committed to having to deal with the grip mount until you know the new barrel works. If the barrel is no good you just unscrew it and try the next one. If the next barrel is not G.I. make sure it has the correct Thompson chamber and not a standard .45 ACP chamber or you will have feeding problems.

Bob

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Hi Michael Z. Williamson,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. Congratulations on your Cadmus Industries Thompson submachine gun. If this Thompson was acquired in 1966 as a deactivated machine gun, it was sold to your friend on an IRS Form 5. The Amnesty Registration in 1968 would be insurance this Thompson is on the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR), commonly referred to as the NFA Registry. A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) would be interesting. 

The barrel on this Thompson has only 24 fins with the grip mount under the 20th fin. I suspect this is a Numrich Arms commercial barrel. I am curious if the serial number prefix begins with an "S" or "A.O." and if the frame has a matching serial number. 

Do you have any of the original sale paperwork from Cadmus Industries?

All good stuff!!!

 

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On 7/4/2023 at 11:47 PM, TD. said:

Hi Michael Z. Williamson,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. Congratulations on your Cadmus Industries Thompson submachine gun. If this Thompson was acquired in 1966 as a deactivated machine gun, it was sold to your friend on an IRS Form 5. The Amnesty Registration in 1968 would be insurance this Thompson is on the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR), commonly referred to as the NFA Registry. A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) would be interesting. 

The barrel on this Thompson has only 24 fins with the grip mount under the 20th fin. I suspect this is a Numrich Arms commercial barrel. I am curious if the serial number prefix begins with an "S" or "A.O." and if the frame has a matching serial number. 

Do you have any of the original sale paperwork from Cadmus Industries?

All good stuff!!!

 

I have the original amnesty registration and the invoice from Cadmus.  It was sold as deactivated.  He registered it.  It transfered to my trust on Form 5, was Form 1ed to reactivate.

SN is AO85XXX

He had a massive collection of Class III and hundreds of standard firearms he loaned to the Fort Benjamin Harrison Museum until it closed in 1976.

Quoting my post from another forum:
 

Finally shipped the last NFA weapon from Gary's estate. It took two years, me, Jess managing paperwork, two firearm attorneys, the estate attorney, an SOT who handles really oddball stuff, the executor, and a very nice, very knowledgeable, very efficient Examiner at NFA Branch.
It started when I was helping him sell sabers, bayonets, etc, and he said he wanted to sell some of the firearms, so I assisted with photos, a Gunbroker account, research, listing.
And he said, "I also have the deactivated machine guns I loaned to the Fort Harrison Museum. In 1968 I sent papers to the ATF and they sent papers back."
I twitch. "So, those are DEWATs."
"?"
"DEactivated WAr Trophies."
"I guess."
"Well, with a Form 1 and $200, those can be reactivated. They're sellable."
Pulls out his pipe. "Oh, well, I've got a Maxim, a Madsen, a Hotchkiss, a DP28, an MG42, an MP44, a Lewis Gun, a Japanese Type 99, a Thompson, an MP18, a Soviet mortar..."
"Holy S#!T, Gary, that's $100,000 worth of hardware!"
"I only paid a few hundred."
"Yeah, in 1962 when they couldn't give them away."
Then he passed away, and we had to find the paperwork buried in his house.
A friend, my son and I are up in the attic pulling out guns. "That's a mortar...is that a firing pin? This is a live mortar."
"Holy crap, that's a complete Sturmgewehr."
"Is that a Boys Rifle?"
"Wait...that's not a bazooka....that's...holy crap, it's a Panzerschreck."
This is in addition to Lugers, Broomhandles, Carcanos, Mausers, SMLEs, Webleys, Arisakas, a Sharps buffalo rifle, Trapdoors, more sabers, Mosin Nagants, Walthers, a Gewehr 41 and a Gewehr 43, an original 1800s musket, a percussion cape gun, an FN49, a No4 Mk1(T) sniper rifle in transit chest with matching scope, a Japanese Type 97 sniper rifle, an M1D, a Soviet Mosin sniper, pre-import markings, a P14 sniper, a Reichsrevolver, a Radom P35, a stocked Inglis, a Dutch Hembrug carbine, a Bayard .32, a Steyr M95 8mm, a No 5 Jungle Carbine ... some of them still with the museum tags and receipts.
Not counting sabers, Japanese swords, bayonets, uniforms, scarce helmets, a mine detector new in box, radios, a drop tank, and all the mundane autographed SF books, comics, anime, the woodblock prints, jewelry...
Then the executor, and estate attorney, had to file a bunch of paperwork that my attorney assisted with. Then the first buyer was also a firearm attorney, and knew someone at NFA branch who helped find the missing records. Then we had to fix all the Amnesty forms, including a WRONG SERIAL NUMBER and wrong IDs.
Maxim 08/15
Madsen 1908
Hotchkiss 1914 with tripod
DP28
MG42 (not papered, now converted to semi)
StG44
Lewis Gun, in transit chest, with tools and accessories, Irish surplused after being British surplused.
Japanese Type 99 LMG, being converted to take either 7.7 Jap, .308, or 7.62X39, because original mags don't exist (drop in conversion, no structural changes).
1928A1 Thompson (mine now, with new barrel, all new springs, bolt, and some other tuning)
MP18A1
50mm Soviet RM38 mortar
Finnish 81mm M42 Savunheiten mortar
Panzerschreck
Boys Rifle (.55 Boys British anti-armor rifle)
His family thought he died broke. We were able to fix that, and find caring homes for some amazing, historically important hardware.
The Finns literally don't have a Savunheiten in their military museum. I've been getting detailed photos and measurements with the assistance of Oleg Volk so their few photos can be upgraded with better visuals and specs.
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Michael,

A great story. Hat's off to you for saving a bunch of NFA weapons that will be enjoyed by enthusiasts for years to come. These could have easily been abandoned and destroyed like so many others. 

The original Deactivated War Trophy Program or "dewat" did not require any registration of deactivated machine guns. After all, these guns were deactivated. They were not viewed as firearms. But then the rules changed and the dewat program was ended. This required all the then legally unregistered 1940s to 1950s dewats to be registered with the IRS on a Form 5. I would guess most were never registered. Unfortunately, the later owners of many deactivated machine guns that were sold and properly registered on Form 5s after the dewat program was ended by the IRS did not understand the future transfer requirements. These deactivated machine guns were sold or traded away without any thought of government paperwork. What's interesting is the early IRS Form 5 registration only required NOTICE to the IRS. There was no approval process. Registration for an unregistered deactivated machine gun only required filling out a Form 5 and mailing it to the IRS. Same for selling one to your next door neighbor or anyone else. The names and addresses of the transferor and transferee were all that was required along with a notation about the firearm being deactivated. Period. The early Form 5 was titled, "Notice of Tax-Exempt Domestic Transfer of Firearm." You have to remember that registration was all about the tax. Deactivated, no tax. This was an eye-opening moment for me when doing the story on Potomac Arms Corporation in, A Thompson Compendium. But there I was looking at hundreds of copies of IRS Form 5s for deactivated Thompson submachine guns sold in the USA. 

I would guess that Cadmus Industries filed a Form 5 with the IRS when this Thompson was sold to "Gary" since the sale occurred in the mid 1960s and the notice procedures with the IRS were well established by then. What I don't know is if Gary knew about this potential early registration, understood it, or even had a copy of the IRS Form 5. Hence my mention of filing a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to see the registration history of this Thompson. 

I am also curious about some of the deactivated Thompson guns sold by Cadmus as being in a fire. Was this mentioned in the advertisements? Does anyone know any more about this? That is why I was curious if the frame serial number matched the receiver. I know Potomac Arms purchased some Thompson stripped receivers from Interarms. 

If you live in Indiania you definitely need to join one or both of the Thompson Associations and attend a Show & Shoot in Ohio. 

All good stuff! 

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All the weapons are sold.  It was two grueling years of clearing out the hoarder house, finding docs, sending paper after paper to NFA branch with the attorneys' assistance (my firearm attorney subcontracted to the estate to assist).

The process was simplified because he inherited his mother's house, so none of the firearms changed address over the decades. They were still registered to the same address. But we sent REAMS of documents.

The mortars and Panzerschreck were fully intact, Amnestied in 1968, and Form 4 transferred.  IIRC the Lewis Gun and one other were DEWATed on arrival, by InterOrdnance. The rest were not papered, even while in the museum, until he filed Amnesty paperwork from Southeast Asia (he flew out of Thailand). They were still on loan in the museum, and he had papers at home, which I'm sure wasn't quite proper.  At one point he also had an MG34, but it got sold. I have no other info on it.

I do most of my FA shooting at Bass and Bucks in Wabash, IN, but I can get to some other locations.

I also paid the estate for the DP28--pre 68 import, matching numbers, no import marks.  I've upgraded it to DPM standard.

 

DPFire.jpg

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Very cool. Thank you for sharing. 

Regarding your 1928 Thompson, the barrel is most likely the problem. Or at least one of the problems. Numrich Arm barrels, especially on the West Hurley Thompson submachine guns, are one of the main issues for functioning problems. From what I have read, the chambers were not cut properly for the Thompson gun - but this can be remedied by a qualified gunsmith that understands what is needed for a Thompson submachine gun. Many owners simply change out the barrels with a USGI barrel or a commercial product like from Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Company. Others on the Board have much more experience in this area and my chime in.  

I do like the MATTEL sticker!

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