Help needed for research project.

[TD.]

There were 15,000 Colt manufactured Thompson submachine guns sold by Auto-Ordnance Corporation from 1921 to 1940. According to Auto-Ordnance sales literature, an oiler, cleaning rod, Type XX magazine and handbook was included with the shipment of each gun. Other accessories, such as an L and/or C drum(s), additional Type XX magazines and MILLS (later RUSCO) web gear was also available for purchase. I am looking for that special Thompson submachine gun that still has all or most of the original equipment shipped with the gun. I do not care about the condition of the Thompson, only that some or all of the original accessories shipped with it are still with the gun. If you can think of an example, would you please contact me via Private Message or at: tkd5501@fuse.net - so we can discuss.

All leads will be greatly appreciated.  

The Thompson Collector's Association (TCA) Show & Shoot will be here soon. It is a great event; one you do not want to miss. The Officers and Directors of TCA work really hard to make sure everyone has a great time. 

[johnsonlmg41]

My literature states only the oil can and the mag were included, no cleaning rod.   There is not a Colt in existence that I am aware of where you'd be able to prove the oil can never left the original stock and that even the stocks were often mixed with the can inside, or the cans and felt pulled and moved around.  Mine came with an oil can and original felt, but came from a PD and traversed several hands before I got it.  If you know a guy that worked at a PD that had one gun, took the gun home, and is now 130 years old, you might have a chance?  Near impossible today to even find an original gun that hasn't had parts swapped, refinished, touched up, etc. and after 100 years there would be no proof to verify those assumptions.

There are a number of book writers, social media stars, etc. over the years that have taken liberties of creating "things and information" that don't exist, putting it in media, and it becomes validated as real to most readers/viewers.  There's a small group that always provide disclaimers in their presentations and allow for discussion and updating when new info becomes available, and those guys IMO do the best work. 

Best of luck in your quest.

[TD.]

johnsonlmg41,

Thank you for your very informative response. I agree it is very much a long shot to find a Colt Thompson like I need for my research project. My quest thus far has found two Colt's that fit within my research parameters; one with the impeccable provenance and all the accessories, one that also has impeccable provenance but unfortunately not all the accessories were saved over the years. I am hoping there are a few more. Enthusiasts like you and others on this forum may be the key to uncovering these rare birds!   

I agree about the liberties taken by authors over the years when writing about the Thompson submachine gun. Unfortunately, there has been much misinformation published. Some by authors that really believed that the information published was accurate and others that were filling a word number requirement for the story. The U-boat losses of Thompson submachine guns during World War II and the canvas spare part kits immediately come to mind. I have written about both and stand behind what I have published. But I am always open to additional documentation or evidence to expand on or correct what I have written. 

I believe a cleaning rod was included with every Colt Thompson sold by Auto-Ordnance, at least in the early years. The first Thompson submachine gun handbook and all subsequent editions indicated a cleaning rod accompanied each gun. See below. 

[johnsonlmg41]

In looking at some of my stuff, the original  instruction sheet notes to use the cleaning rod provided with the gun.  I don't know the date, but surely others here do.  My 1929 catalog lists the cleaning rod as a separate line item, along with many other accy.  for sale.   Another question that would raise is when they may have quit including them with the gun and offered them as a option, and what serial numbers made the cutoff?  Who ordered the rod, and who didn't?   I wish I had the handbook you have pictured....NICE item.

I'm still in search of an original rod, and haven't really even figured out what to look for to specifically find one?  I've probably already overestimated and exhausted my knowledge of Colt Thompson stuff? 

Thanks for keeping up the research and your writings!  I've learned a bunch over the years.

 

[colt21a]

BRISTOW OKLAHOMA GUN. {SAME TOWN I THINK THAT PRETTY BOY FLOYDS WIFE CAME FROM}ANYHOW BOUGHT IT FROM THE CHIEF. HAD HARDCASE, 4 20 RD. 50 RD DRUM CLEANING ROD IN CASE.  manual 2nd ed.AND ALSO ENVELOPE AND PAPER WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO OPERATE GUN ALSO HAD OIL CAN IN STOCK WITH FELT. AND THE WASHER screws still in both grips. after it all arrived. the chief shipped me the spare parts kit. 2 weeks late.  still in oil caked wax wrapped. the only one out of six originals i had that i had ever seen like that. and was told it was in a file cabinet drawer    {and he said it was mine since i bought the whole deal, and that was included.}

 

sold the entire package minus the s,p,k to birmingham pistol to i think Chris, along with a Colt Commercial 1919 B.A.R.WITH DOCS FROM STEEL CO. AND COLT LETTER USED TO GUARD PAYROLL. BOTH GUNS AROUND A GREAT 95%

AND WOOD WAS OUTSTANDING, THE KIT WENT TO JERRY YEARS LATER IN WI.AS HE BOUGHT STUFF FROM ME FOR WELL OVER 25 YEARS.

YOU CAN LOOK IT UP IN GORDONS BOOK. AS HE WAS TOLD THE STORY AND SAW THE GUN WHEN HE WAS AT MY PLACE. PROBABLY AROUND 1989,

SO YES ONE SURE DID EXIST. 2ND OWNER GUN.1921AC #7519

> NOT SURE HOW MANY 2ND OWNER GUNS ARE OUT THERE BUT I DID HAVE A NUMBER OF THEM.<

RON K.

 

[TD.]

johnsonlmg41,

Thank you for your kind words about my research and writings.

The Auto-Ordnance First Edition handbooks are great. Same with the Second and Third Editions. All difficult to find and usually very expensive when found depending on condition. The Fourth Edition handbooks are much more affordable. The Auto-Ordnance Instruction Sheets are another hard-to-find item. I believe there are at least two variations and three variations of the envelopes (but I really need to check this). As far as I know, all the Instruction Sheets state the cleaning rod is included with the purchase of a gun. You are correct about the 1929 catalog. Congratulations on having one of these in your collection - another desirable Auto-Ordnance paper item. I too noticed that the cleaning rod was only listed for purchase in the 1929 Commercial Price List and Catalog but then a review of the very common Auto-Ordnance 1936 catalog shows the cleaning rod included. Same with the very rare 1940 Auto-Ordnance catalog. I generally give the handbooks more credibility than the catalogs, but both are important.

I do believe cleaning rods were included with all the Colt's sold, at least until J. Russell Maguire took over in July 1939. Major Barrett's Auto-Ordnance shipping records have a space for a cleaning if shipped with a gun. Only the first page has been published and it does show two of the very earliest guns shipped without cleaning rods. I have been fortunate to see a few of the later shipping records and in every case, a cleaning rod was included with a shipped gun. Of note, all the IRA purchased guns were shipped with cleaning rods. When the 495 Thompson guns were seized on the S.S. Eastside in New Jersey in 1921, the inventory included "486 cleaners" and "440 pamphlets." I know what happened to most of the (IRA) guns. I have always wondered what happened to the cleaning rods and handbooks. 

Regarding the J. Russell Maguire era, I have my doubts if the 951 Colts ordered by the US Army in June 1939, the 3000 Colts sold to the French in November 1939 and the 500 Colts sold to the Swedish government in January 1940 were shipped with cleaning rods. Of course, these sales comprised almost a third of the total Colt production. 

The shipping records also show if (MILLS) "Web Gun Cases" were included with the purchase and shipment of a gun(s). This is another original accessory I am seeking if the case can be shown to be original with a particular Colt. There are several variations of these cases. 

It is a tall order to find original accessories that can be proven to have been shipped or sold with a Colt Thompson. I like what I have discovered thus far in my research but really need more examples to be sure I am on the right track. If only colt21a would have saved all the second owner guns and accessories for me to review today  Ron, I am jealous of all your dealings with the Colt Thompson guns. 

Come on guys, there has to be a few somewhere. 

[colt21a]

Yes Tom and i wish i had documented more and going to pd's  seeing them in rack's. I do have pics of the Chicago police pds;but never took a pic of #3151 Will County.OR #1875 MARKHAM , 5715 AND 6006 I THINK I STILL HAVE THOSE PICS. ANOTHER PAIR THEY HAD IN ILLINOIS, i bought,and {9515} peru il. and #6349  ILLINOIS STATE POLICE gun. I SOLD THE DUAL GUN CASE FOR COOK COUNTIES 2 GUNS to a member here. and the Chicago police case  as far as i know the only one ever released. to a collector in ct.this is all by memory tonight to have to check on those numbers, but %99 might be right. had also#5294 was a 3rd owner gun,  WAS ALSO A GREAT ONE from  FRANKFORT IL.  ROGERS Cover gun was #5290 from same area southern il,

> I chased a lot of that stuff for years from the War in Illinois book.AND HAD #9131 MICHIGAN CITY INDIANA

 when john was locked up there.

Cicero ,il still had there gun a 1921ac, and the Col.McCormick { Chicago Tribune} gun is still locked away in the basement vault at Cantigny.I am probably one of the first to find it in the mansion. Before they locked it up for good when i tried buying. it for $10,000 and offered them another gun for display. that went no place with family or the corp.in the 70's and 80's i did not run around with a camera taking pics.i bought sold and traded 1,000's of kinds of all guns.It was HISTORY..

 

I HANDED MOST ALL RECORDS TO GORDON, AND A FEW COPIES TO DOUG.I never could locate the Colt Monitor b.a.r. from Barrington ,il car, and yes it did exist.thanks for the memories....RON K.THIS IS #8780 FROM OHIO. I THINK GEORGE STILL HAS IT.And it was a very nice gun when i sold it. all original.

[rpbcps]

Ron,

Wow, your memory is far better than mine reading that post " is all by memory tonight to have to check on those numbers, but %99 might be right". 

Hats off to you sir....

 

Tom,

I agree 100% with what Johnsonlmg41 wrote:

"Thanks for keeping up the research and your writings!  I've learned a bunch over the years". Here here, every day is a 'school day' for me.

It always amazes me the knowledge and fresh information that comes up on this forum.

 

Edited April 20, 2024 by rpbcps
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