Lanchester finish

[Rekraps]

So, I've been doing a bit of research (which can be dangerous) and as many of you already know, the original finish on the Lanchesters was a gorgeous, dark (almost black) color. It reminds me of some of the top-end Browning shotguns I've seen. 

My question was whether or not, over time, the guns were arsenal refinished and if so, what type of finish was applied.

Googling deep, I ran across a 2005 post from a Brit (civilian) who worked at a facility that refurbished Lanchesters for the government. He noted that the guns they received were stripped and re-finished with phosphate (parkerized). He also noted that the guns, in his opinion were very nicely manufactured, of excellent quality and way over-engineered.

His post was in my opinion credible.

He also noted that after the guns were declared obsolete in 1979, most were destroyed. Guns declared "export" include a separate six pronged star, and if then sold, a "S" stamp next to the star. (separate from the "star" by MK1*). Obviously most of the 79K or so guns were manufactured by Sterling "SA".  Since the gun was mostly used by the RN, after WW2 when the UK sold surplus ships, they did so with all accrutuments to include any onboard Lanchesters. 

So, for those of us lucky enough to own a C&R, we may have the original or arsenal refinished versions, domestic UK or export, sold export or not sold export, MK1 (or MK1 converted) or MK1*, bolt block or not.

Great gun (how could it not be since the design was "borrowed" from the MP28), great history and a welcome addition to any collection. 

[APEXgunparts]

A whole bunch of Lanchesters were made into european spec dewats.
They were imported here long ago, before the 2005 barrel ban.
The receivers were cut, and the bolts had already been chopped back horizontally as part of the euro spec dewat process.
In our recent purchase we ended up with about a half a pallet box of the cut bolts, 2 different types of charging handles.
Here is also a selection of stocks, barrels, magazines and parts.
The bolts all appear to be a gray colour (parkerizing?) and on the few barrels I have examined there was that black paint (stoving) that the British applied over the bluing.
The stocks mostly seem to have Egyptian markings indicating that the guns were for training.
I found some cut firing pins, copper plated like the British do on training modified parts.
The 50rd magazines mostly are really worn, little finish remaining, lots of dings and dents in them.
I know most of the internal parts i have seen are blued, but at this point in history I would expect everything has been refinished at least once.
I have heard these came from the Egyptian Navy and the guns were transferred to them on ships they purchased from the Royal Navy.
Here is a picture of a stock I selected a couple of years ago out of this same batch of material to put on my Lanchester.
The original stock is the one not installed.

Richard

 

[Rekraps]

Excellent info. No doubt the egyptian guns are RN guns. I wonder if they have the six pointed star with "S" stamp (export approved/sold) on the magazine well?

[StrangeRanger]

Mine is guaranteed to be Egyptian and does not have those markings. The only * marking that I can find is "MK.1*"

BTW a lot of the Lanchesters ended up in the hands of the Egyptian Central Security Forces (national paramilitary police forces) and are marked in Arabic on the bottom of the bronze mag housing

Both export markings and the Egyptian police markings shown here:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/lanchester-submachine-gun-post-wwii-use/

Edited June 9 by StrangeRanger

[Rekraps]

6 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Mine is guaranteed to be Egyptian and does not have those markings. The only * marking that I can find is "MK.1*"

BTW a lot of the Lanchesters ended up in the hands of the Egyptian Central Security Forces (national paramilitary police forces) and are marked in Arabic on the bottom of the bronze mag housing

Both export markings and the Egyptian police markings shown here:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/lanchester-submachine-gun-post-wwii-use/

Perfect example! Sterling manufactured, hand fitted parts, MK1*... but no export marks. I wonder if the guns on the RN ships had the export star and stamp? Maybe no?

Well, one thing is for sure, no matter how far and deep I look, I cannot find an explanation for the CF 67 (mine has a similar stamp). Any idea?

[johnsonlmg41]

IIRC there is something in the book on the numbers, etc.?

[StrangeRanger]

Yep but the CFXX had Peter Laidler stumped too ("Unknown code followed by small numbers")

[Rekraps]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:31 PM, StrangeRanger said:

Yep but the CFXX had Peter Laidler stumped too ("Unknown code followed by small numbers")

Every source I find is stumped. It might be some type of military acceptance or location code. Note that the CF is one stamp, and the numbers are another. 

[Rekraps]

[johnsonlmg41]

Well.....we know for sure that is not original finish.  NOTHING British ever was that shiny or clean.   Interesting bolt safety, I have not seen that before.   I would have to dig mine out, but I think it's black suncorite over park?

I know we had a thread here about the markings years ago?  I'm sure it's searchable, but I don't recall any conclusions?

Edited June 12 by johnsonlmg41

[APEXgunparts]

A few years ago Dan Shea had a Lanchester "tube" gun on his tables at the SAR show.
What I really liked about it was the military finish.
The wood and steel were flat, and the best part was the flat greenish coating on the gun metal / bronze magazine housing.
I wish my mag housing was still coated.
I run across this on Australian Lithgow #1 rifle brass barrel bands, everyone polishes off the non-reflective black coating and makes them shiny!
Same with Vickers tripods, owners take the paint off and try to shine them up.
Must just be me, I don't like polished up parts on anything.

Richard

[StrangeRanger]

The steel parts on mine are a very low-gloss but not quite matte black. The bronze has been stripped of finish but not polished. The wood is a flat oil finish

 

Edited June 12 by StrangeRanger

[Rekraps]

Ah, everyone likes their guns different! For me, I wanted it as close to original finish as possible, and after 80 years of storage, arsenal refinish etc. this was the way to go. My research indicates that it is as close to factory as possible. Andrewski confirmed the originality of the C&R status, it's a MK1 no star, '43 gun, A suffix Sterling Armaments MFG gun.

[StrangeRanger]

1 hour ago, Rekraps said:

 it's a MK1 no star, '43 gun, A suffix Sterling Armaments MFG gun.

The picture isn't real clear but I don't think I see a selector switch. Is there one?  If not it's a Mk 1* regardless of the marking on the mag housing.  Does it have the hole for the selector switch in the front of the trigger guard?  If so it's a Mk 1 to 1* conversion.  Does it have the one piece trigger bar or the articulated one?  If the articulated one has it been welded? 

[Rekraps]

2 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

The picture isn't real clear but I don't think I see a selector switch. Is there one?  If not it's a Mk 1* regardless of the marking on the mag housing.  Does it have the hole for the selector switch in the front of the trigger guard?  If so it's a Mk 1 to 1* conversion.  Does it have the one piece trigger bar or the articulated one?  If the articulated one has it been welded? 

I'll have to look more closely later today. No selector switch, so as with most others it's a conversion to a MK* (with or without the star). 

[StrangeRanger]

A conversion should have the hole for the selector in the front of the trigger guard and will probably have the articulated trigger bar

[Rekraps]

I'll look.

[Frank Iannamico]

Lanchester article with select-fire control lever

http://archive.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1705

 

[Rekraps]

23 hours ago, Frank Iannamico said:

Lanchester article with select-fire control lever

http://archive.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1705

 

Great article Frank, and thanks!

[APEXgunparts]

Times have changed!
No need to fabricate LANCHESTER firing pins any longer.
Plenty of extractors too.

Lanchester parts search on the APEX Gun Parts web site

Richard

[quartermaster-1939-69]

Rather late to the party with this one. Guns were originally blued (Sterling MkI contract) then they were browned for MkI*’s. Boss contract guns were browned with a black suncorite top coat finish. Although Boss contracts date back to 1942, it wasn’t until 1945 that they finished production of what was then MkI** guns. 

[Rekraps]

12 hours ago, quartermaster-1939-69 said:

Rather late to the party with this one. Guns were originally blued (Sterling MkI contract) then they were browned for MkI*’s. Boss contract guns were browned with a black suncorite top coat finish. Although Boss contracts date back to 1942, it wasn’t until 1945 that they finished production of what was then MkI** guns. 

Well, I suppose that with this many guns in your collection, you'd be willing to part with one or two?

 

I note that the top adn bottom both have the bolt block stock, but only the top gun has the actual bolt block installed.

[quartermaster-1939-69]

I've got a few more since the photo was taken, including some more with the safety stop. 

The guns fitted with the safety stop which was officially introduced in March 1944, although proposed back in 1942. They were termed the MkI**. Later production Sterling guns were fitted with them, as well as some 1944 production Greener and Boss guns. The 1945 Boss made guns were actually marked MkI** on the magazine housings. 

In theory all guns should have been fitted with them. Two contracts were placed for the levers which would have covered all 80,000 production guns, however in practise few were fitted, and during foreign service many were removed when stocks were changed. Stocks not cut for the lever were deemed MkI's, stocks with the cut, MkI*'s.

. 

[tommyboy]

Looking at this C&R Lanchester that looks pretty original, however I wasn’t certain about the blued finish. It has a nice patina and if it was reblued, it was done long ago. it’s manufactured by Boss and the serial number begins with H. 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited November 26 by tommyboy

[Rekraps]

So the finish looks original to me. I pulled my reconditioned C&R out, (Andrewski job) and his finish was as close to OEM as they come, matching yours very close. 

 

Is that an M.P.18,I in the background?