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Bump Stock Rule Struck Down by SCOTUS


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100% correct ruling by SCOTUS. If they are to be banned, then congress, not the ATF needs to pass appropriate legislation.

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Given that Congress is incapable of doing anything besides posing for the news cameras and collecting bribes campaign contributions, good luck with finding Constitutional solutions to problems, any problems

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On 6/14/2024 at 2:06 PM, StrangeRanger said:

Given that Congress is incapable of doing anything besides posing for the news cameras and collecting bribes campaign contributions, good luck with finding Constitutional solutions to problems, any problems

100% correct, however it would do our hobby well to have bump stocks and other gimmicks taken off the market. I watched a video of the bump stock in action and it's just garbage, good luck hitting anything other than a large crowd. 

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All of the attempts to outsmart the ATF by clever parsing of the regs to find real or imagined loopholes ultimately hurt gun owners in general and NFA owners in particular.  Yet people persist.

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I not too long ago used outfit for big game, primarily Elk and Mountain Lion. It never ceased to amaze me how some archery hunters would piss about rifle hunters, some rifle hunters about trappers, some trappers about migratory bird hunters, others pissing about fishermen, and then there were the upland bird hunters pissing about houndsmen who hunt bear and lion with dogs, and on and on and on even though we are all part of the same industry. Somehow their niche was better and more noble than the others, real or imagined. 

My point, there are gun owners who are fine with their wheel gun, their pump shotgun, or their traditional muzzle loader, but really feel there is no place for ownership of a full auto machinegun or submachine gun, an AR15 for that matter. Imagine, people who are kinda 2nd amendment friendly but only to a certain point. Those people are dangerous to our 2nd amendment. 

Biden says to protect myself from the government I need an F16, fine I want one, and I should be allowed to own one if I can afford one. If I had a friend who could afford one, I would support him, I certainly wouldn't tell him that is ridiculous,  but you can own a BAR or a tank but that is where I draw the line. 

So with that we all need to stick together, and if you have  friend who is just kinda second amendment friendly,  it's best you try and get him over to complete second amendment friendly. 

Edited by ppgcowboy
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The easiest way to sum it up is-gun owners are our own worst enemy. Always trying to find an end run around things so the bragging point of “I stuck it to the man” but in the end all it does is bite every gun owner in the ass. People need to let sleeping dogs lay and not keep poking that hornets nest because you won’t like the results. 

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2 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

The easiest way to sum it up is-gun owners are our own worst enemy. Always trying to find an end run around things so the bragging point of “I stuck it to the man” but in the end all it does is bite every gun owner in the ass. People need to let sleeping dogs lay and not keep poking that hornets nest because you won’t like the results. 

Exactly!  I was not and still not a fan of bump stocks in any way shape or form for exactly those reasons. 

My concern was how ATF went about rewriting or reinterpreting the NFA definition put there by congress of what is a machine gun which if allowed to continue is something that could bite all of us in the rear at some future date.  If bump stocks are to be banned on a national basis it needs to be done through the legislative process as has been done in several states already.  Those bans still remain in effect.

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On 6/15/2024 at 3:44 PM, Rekraps said:

100% correct, however it would do our hobby well to have bump stocks and other gimmicks taken off the market. I watched a video of the bump stock in action and it's just garbage, good luck hitting anything other than a large crowd. 

I had a few and they were .just fun gimmicks. They were no better than spraying and praying. But, when we give up anything then we are on a slippery slope. Sure, the bump stocks are a lightening rod but that should die down because nobody is stupid enough to really use these in a crime (I may be deluded).  Those with "stendos" and Glock switches are doing the gun/shooting community a diservice. Unfortunately freedom is not always flags and parades; the ugly side comes with it because freedom is not safe and secure; freedom is also the right (not without consequences) to have free will.

Edited by Chappy
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20 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

All of the attempts to outsmart the ATF by clever parsing of the regs to find real or imagined loopholes ultimately hurt gun owners in general and NFA owners in particular.  Yet people persist.

I agree with you 100% and to me as an SOT, some of the crap that goes on with post-samples is as bad as the gimmicky  consumer stuff. While I do not believe in the NFA, those that play fast and loose with post samples hurt all of us.

Chappy

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5 hours ago, Chappy said:

...but that should die down because nobody is stupid enough to really use these in a crime (I may be deluded)...

Bump stocks became an issue when the guy opened fire on the concert crowd in Las Vegas and killed 60 people.  He was using several rifles equipped with bump stocks.  I think 60 murders qualifies as a crime

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30 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

Bump stocks became an issue when the guy opened fire on the concert crowd in Las Vegas and killed 60 people.  He was using several rifles equipped with bump stocks.  I think 60 murders qualifies as a crime

100% Wrong. 

the issue was shooting many people without deterrence for a long period of time (supposedly over 10 minutes).  The bumpstocks which were not on all the guns had nothing to do with opening fire and having control over a huge crowded area.   Fact is, it's possible the erratic fire from bump stocks may have actually saved some people at that distance.  Controlled suppressed fire would have resulted in far greater casualty numbers in a scenario like that.

Another dramatic failure of government on several levels, once again was to blame for most of it, both long before the shooting began, and into the whole scene.  As usual they blame the hammer, and not the guy swinging it.  Until this delusion stops, and the mental illness and zero accountability is reigned in, the shootings will continue.   In recent times only El Salvador has changed it's methods with dramatic positive results.  That will not happen here.  We are currently in the midst of celebrating mental illness month?  Expect more murders as a result of mental illness,  drug usage (including prescription drugs), and moral decline that are all tied together and promoted by certain groups in positions of authority.

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Actually I was 100% right and you need to read more carefully.

Nowhere did I say the bump stocks somehow caused the killings but the fact remains that he used several of them on the rifles with which he committed the killings. My comment was made as a rebuttal to the previous one that nobody would be stupid enough to use one in a crime.  How effective the bump stocks were or were not in carrying out the murders is irrelevant to that discussion.

They only emerged as an issue as a result of the killings and that led directly to Trump's ban order

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12 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Actually I was 100% right and you need to read more carefully.

Nowhere did I say the bump stocks somehow caused the killings but the fact remains that he used several of them on the rifles with which he committed the killings. My comment was made as a rebuttal to the previous one that nobody would be stupid enough to use one in a crime.  How effective the bump stocks were or were not in carrying out the murders is irrelevant to that discussion.

They only emerged as an issue as a result of the killings and that led directly to Trump's ban order

Correct, which gets back to my point about the impact of some of these "devices" on our hobby. It's all about optics (i.e. Valentine's day Massacre) which pre-empted the whole registration of MG's to start with. I fully understand that this is a slippery slope, especially with so many looking for ways to take our rights away, however it is intuitively obvious to even the most casual of observers that Bump stock, binary triggers and the like (yes, to include "pistol braces") were a slick and amazingly effective way for gun owners to circumvent and get around the spirit of the law. Of course it didn't and doesn't help that the ATF constantly exceeds their authority, but the courts are picking up on this and will return the responsibility to Congress as it should be. 

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15 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

Bump stocks became an issue when the guy opened fire on the concert crowd in Las Vegas and killed 60 people.  He was using several rifles equipped with bump stocks.  I think 60 murders qualifies as a crime

He had them but I don't believe they were used. That incident was the impetus for the ban but they are not a serious tool. I remember he had quite a few rifles and the bumpstocks were not a part of the active shooting. If I am wrong, please let me know and cite sources.

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As far as the politics go whether he used them or not is pretty much a distinction without a difference.  Before Vegas many if not most gun owners knew about bump stocks and most of us considered them to be worthless trash and still do.  The general public largely had never heard of them.  After Vegas when the police described his arsenal as including rifles fitted with bump stocks the public became aware of them and the pols being anxious to pose for the cameras reacted accordingly.  No one outside of the coroner and the crime scene techs much cared which rifle fired the bullets that killed which victims.

Edited by StrangeRanger
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4 hours ago, StrangeRanger said:

As far as the politics go whether he used them or not is pretty much a distinction without a difference.  Before Vegas many if not most gun owners knew about bump stocks and most of us considered them to be worthless trash and still do. 

Your ignorance of things you don't own or have never tried is fascinating.   Last week it was S&W 76, this week bump stocks.  What wisdom of things you don't own will you share next week?  I can hardly wait?  LOL

Regurgitating internet lore of other people with no knowledge or experience is a past time for a lot of people.  It often truly amuses me.  Worthless trash?  I am fortunate to not fall into the category of "most gun owners".    One of my favorite past times is buying worthless trash, myth-busting the naysayers, not sharing the results, and watching the myth perpetuate.

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And your arrogance astounds me.

Not that it's any of your concern but I have spent more time than I care to remember with both a S&W 76 and with a Burgess clone. My comments applied to both and are backed up by more than a few others including Frank Iannamico's 76 book. 

As for bump stocks, I don't own one and never intend to.  As far as I'm concerned they are toys for wannabe M-16 owers. If you find any practical much less tactical value in one you are definitely not "most gun owners" or most of the posters on this board.

I can wait forever for you to grace us with your next bit of what you regard as wisdom

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I would not denigrate people who own bumpstocks as people who want to own m16's. They are on the team in favor of NFA items. Yes they are toys, but in today's world our stamped toys,are nothing but toys. We need to keep everyone who believes in all aspects of the 2nd amendment on our side.

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On 6/16/2024 at 11:18 AM, RoscoeTurner said:

Exactly!  I was not and still not a fan of bump stocks in any way shape or form for exactly those reasons. 

My concern was how ATF went about rewriting or reinterpreting the NFA definition put there by congress of what is a machine gun which if allowed to continue is something that could bite all of us in the rear at some future date.  If bump stocks are to be banned on a national basis it needs to be done through the legislative process as has been done in several states already.  Those bans still remain in effect.

Well said. It was the overreach of the ATF. Congress needs to make that determination.

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51 minutes ago, RoscoeTurner said:

Moderator hat on!

Guys, let's dial it back a notch please.  Thanks

Roger. Sorry.

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On 6/17/2024 at 10:55 AM, Chappy said:

He had them but I don't believe they were used. That incident was the impetus for the ban but they are not a serious tool. I remember he had quite a few rifles and the bumpstocks were not a part of the active shooting. If I am wrong, please let me know and cite sources.

He used bumbstocks in the attack.  The SCOTUS ruling to overturn the ban states it (2nd paragraph), as well as pretty much any other source I've read where it mentions weapons used.  Take a look at any of the videos...there's no way he attains that ROF, over time for that many rounds, unassisted.  Here's a pretty good video that maps the sequence, layouts, movements and videos of this massacre without being too anti-gun...though it is a NYT production.

10 Minutes. 12 Gunfire Bursts. 30 Videos. Mapping the Las Vegas Massacre

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