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NAC 1928A1


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First question... were all the NAC Thompsons registered originally?

Second question... Is there a way to check a potential NFA items status through a third party?

Backstory... I've known a gentleman for many years who has always had a Thompson hanging on the wall of his man cave. At one point 10-15 years ago I asked him if it worked. He replied with "no, it's just for decoration." I had not really paid any special attention to it after that. Over the past year or so I've decided that I would like to add a Thompson to my collection primarily as a shooter. I'm going to let the .50 cal Browning M2 S/A go to help fund the new addition. Anyway, recently I asked if I could take a closer look at it. Turns out it's a Savage made 1928A1 with matching numbers, both with NAC suffix. Condition looks unfired minus the small weld where the barrel and receiver come together. He's had it for the better part of 30 years, and he said his dad had it as long as he could remember before. Research tells me if it is registered it could be reactivated. If not it's contraband since the receiver is intact. I've been told it could be sold at a very reasonable price if someone were to do the paperwork leg work. If it's not registered I don't want to cost the gentleman his wall decoration. 

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I believe this Savage made Thompson with a NAC suffix was most likely registered on an IRS Form 5, thus avoiding the $200 transfer tax. However, the question becomes who is it registered too. Certainly not the son but possibly the father - if the father purchased it years ago from a dealer in dewat machine guns when an IRS Form 5 registration was required. 
I have done a lot of research on the NAC Thompson guns, especially the crate guns acquired by Numrich Arms in 1951. This story can be found in my 3rd book, A Thompson Compendium. I am away from home this weekend. If you would like to discuss further, send me an email to: tkd5501@fuse.net with NAC in the subject line. I will reach out to you early next week. 

TD.

Tom Davis, Jr.

First step: Have the owner see if a copy of an IRS Form 5 is folded up and inside the butt stock trap door space. 

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Update...

There wasn't any paperwork in the butt stock, just an oiler. I know the previous owner had some ocd/hoarding tendencies, so if there was paperwork it was stashed somewhere. I took a drive and started digging... After hours and hours of digging through old paperwork I found the original form 5 registered to the father!

Based on that information let me double check the procedurefrom here. The current owner needs to file a form 5 to have it transferred to him. He is the sole heir to the estate. After its in his name I can purchase it under a form 5 and take possession. Next would be a form 1 to have it reactivated and find a gunsmith to do the work. Am I missing any steps? 

I would appreciate any feedback concerning the item, or road ahead.

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Congratulations!!!

Make 5 copies of that Form 5! I would assume it is an older IRS Form 5 with "NOTICE" only to the IRS, not approval. I am curious if the seller was Numrich Arms?

I know it sounds simple but the tax free transfer can get very complicated. The good news is the Thompson submachine gun was lawfully registered to the father and stayed in or with the family. Hopefully, there is also a Will and the son is listed as the Executor and the sole beneficiary. If not, ATF may want the son to reopen the estate in probate. Or not. It is very difficult to say what hoops the ATF will want the son to jump through to effect the transfer to him. The ATF may accept a copy of the Will, a copy of the death certificate, a copy of the original IRS Form 5 and the new Form 5 and quickly approve transfer. You and the son will not know until the paperwork is filed. But the Thompson is not contraband and should transfer at some point in time. The transfer from the deceased father to the son is the part that can be problematic. After it is in the son's name, the other steps you mention should be easy.  

Others on this forum, including some long time dealers, will have much more experience in this type of situation than me. Give them time to chime in before proceeding. You want all your ducks in row before attempting transfer.

Let us know what happens.

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Yes, the form 5 does say "NOTICE" on it. The son is the sole beneficiary and exucutor of the estate on the will. It was last transfered in 65 from an individual named William M Easterly. I Googled the name, and a gentleman with the same name appears to have written some machine gun books that came up on Amazon. 

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Great news! The son being named Executor means there is no issue with his possession of the Thompson until the transfer is completed. Hopefully, the transfer is trouble free.

My research long ago revealed William M. Easterly was a Class 3 dealer in a company he named Ivy Armament. He lived and operated in the State of Wisconsin for many years. I do not have all my records with me at the moment but I recall Mr. Easterly did acquire a number of Thompson submachine guns from Numrich Arms over the years. I spoke to Mr. Easterly on the telephone several years ago. 

Thank you for the update!

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It shouldn’t be an issue transferring to you from the estate, but expect it to take awhile….also be a little proactive, take photos of the gun with a tape measure next to it, pictures of the serial number and markings to confirm all the information on the the Form 5. Since it has not transferred in so long, they will want to confirm it is what the paperwork and records say it is. Supplying said photos and such will save a lot of back and forth mailings. 
 

Also, when the gun is transferred to you, the Form 1 will have to be filed on paper as the eform system is still not setup to handle a reactivation via eform yet. 
 

Another method to your process is the one you described, but the other way a DEWAT can be handled is to have the estate Form 5 it to an 07/02 who will reactivate it, file a Form 2 then it can be Form 3 to your dealer where a Form 4 can be done. While it sounds more complicated, it would be faster given this route the gun would be able to be transferred back to you via the eform system which is much faster. So the process would look like this:

Form 5 from estate to 07/02 (paper form)

Form 2 at the 07/02 to reactivate (eform)

Form 3 to a Class III in your state (eform)

Form 4 back to you all done (eform) 

This method would save you several months of waiting and get the gun running faster. 

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GoodStuff,

The current authority on the World War II Thompson guns is, American Thunder, Third Edition, by Frank Iannamico (who posted above). It is a great book, very reasonably priced, and the one I always recommend to those new to the Thompson community. Good advice on having pictures ready by Got Uzi.

BillyDixon,

I don't know if Mr. Easterly has passed. When I spoke to him several years ago, he was retired and living in Texas. I still have my notes but not with me. We had a great discussion. He was one of the few machine gun dealers in a time long ago. Unfortunately for me, his records were destroyed in a flood but the conversation was worth the effort of tracking him down. He was involved in the transfer of several notable Thompson guns discussed on this forum and in my books.

All good stuff!!!

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31 minutes ago, Rekraps said:

By the way.... what is a NAC Thompson?

Do a search here and you will have your answer, there are several threads here that go into great depth on the subject.

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Rekraps,

What is a NAC Thompson? I had the same question when I joined this Board many years ago. It was a subject in which no author had explored with any real depth. After years of research and information from many members of this great forum, I can completely answer your question. And provide much more information on other subjects in the Thompson community. If you want to know about NAC Thompson guns, I recommend my third book, A Thompson Compendium.

 

I guarantee you will not be disappointed. I am away from home at the moment and recommend Amazon.com for fastest delivery.

 

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1 hour ago, Rekraps said:

By the way.... what is a NAC Thompson?

NAC is Numrich Arms Corporation, a marking added "for legal reasons" to guns imported and sold by George Numrich prior to GCA '68. I have a M1928A1, serial number 332xxx NAC. (Not being coy, just don't remember what the serial number is!) The gun is in original unissued condition with matching frame serial number. Also see part one of the excellent article linked below:

THE NAC THOMPSON GUNS: Part 2 - Small Arms Review

 

MVC-029S.JPGMVC-030S.JPG

Edited by TSMGguy
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TSMGguy,

That is a great story from Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine. Thank you for posting. That said, the old gun show story that Numrich Arms Company, later Numrich Arms Corporation, added the prefix and suffix letters "N.A.C." to Thompson guns they manufactured and/or acquired and sold "for legal reasons" is incorrect. There was no legal requirement for Numrich Arms to mark the Thompson guns manufactured and/or acquired with the letters NAC prior to the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968. If that was the case, all the importers and sellers of live and dewat machine guns prior to 1968 like Interarms, Service Armament, Potomac Arms,  Navy Arms (Val Forgett), etc., would have certainly followed the law and added markings to the guns they sold. The reason for the NAC markings by Thompson guns acquired and sold by Numrich Arms is unknown but really quite obvious.

That is a very nice 1928A1 Thompson. I bet if you do a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, you may find the earliest document is a Form 2 from Interarms.

What I don't know and did not research was why the "Pre-Sample" machine guns imported after the GCA of 1968 all (or most) seem to be marked by the importer with name and address information. I think Pre-Sample import requirements would be a great topic of discussion. I have never spent much time on the 'Sample' guns because of the restricted ownership and transfer requirements.

All good stuff!!!

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15 minutes ago, TD. said:

TSMGguy,

That is a great story from Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine. Thank you for posting. That said, the old gun show story that Numrich Arms Company, later Numrich Arms Corporation, added the prefix and suffix letters "N.A.C." to Thompson guns they manufactured and/or acquired and sold "for legal reasons" is incorrect. There was no legal requirement for Numrich Arms to mark the Thompson guns manufactured and/or acquired with the letters NAC prior to the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968. If that was the case, all the importers and sellers of live and dewat machine guns prior to 1968 like Interarms, Service Armament, Potomac Arms,  Navy Arms (Val Forgett), etc., would have certainly followed the law and added markings to the guns they sold. The reason for the NAC markings by Thompson guns acquired and sold by Numrich Arms is unknown but really quite obvious.

That is a very nice 1928A1 Thompson. I bet if you do a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request, you may find the earliest document is a Form 2 from Interarms.

What I don't know and did not research was why the "Pre-Sample" machine guns imported after the GCA of 1968 all (or most) seem to be marked by the importer with name and address information. I think Pre-Sample import requirements would be a great topic of discussion. I have never spent much time on the 'Sample' guns because of the restricted ownership and transfer requirements.

All good stuff!!!

Right you are! The first piece of FOIA paperwork I have is a form 2 dated 6-16-66. It's so heavily redacted as to be pretty uninformative. The second is a form 4 dated 6-30-66 that transfers the gun to the owner that I bought it from. The third is my own form 4 dated 5-1-2000. I've owned the gun ever since.

Edited by TSMGguy
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TSMGguy,

I am not surprised at the redactions on the 1966 Form 2. That said, be grateful you received it. FOIA provided information can sometimes be hit or miss. I have reviewed some FOIA packets that did not contain copies of ownership forms that I had in my possession. Go figure! I have seen enough unredacted INTERARMS IRS forms that I can usually tell if they are the importer. Thankfully, there are a good number of Thompson submachine guns just like yours (and the one GoodStuff posted about) on the Registry for enthusiasts to enjoy in the USA. 

 

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1 hour ago, TD. said:

What I don't know and did not research was why the "Pre-Sample" machine guns imported after the GCA of 1968 all (or most) seem to be marked by the importer with name and address information. I think Pre-Sample import requirements would be a great topic of discussion. I have never spent much time on the 'Sample' guns because of the restricted ownership and transfer requirements.

All good stuff!!!

Markings on all imported firearms became mandatory in the 1968 Gun Control Act Effective 10/22/1968.

“Section 178.92 also requires licensed importers and licensed manufacturers to conspicuously place the following identification markings on the frame, receiver, or barrel of each firearm imported or manufactured in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed:

3. The name (or recognized abbreviation of same) of the manufacturer and also, when applicable, of the importer;”

5. In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where the importer maintains its place of business.”

IMG_1856.jpeg

Edited by inertord
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On 6/29/2024 at 3:23 PM, TD. said:

Great news! The son being named Executor means there is no issue with his possession of the Thompson until the transfer is completed. Hopefully, the transfer is trouble free.

My research long ago revealed William M. Easterly was a Class 3 dealer in a company he named Ivy Armament. He lived and operated in the State of Wisconsin for many years. I do not have all my records with me at the moment but I recall Mr. Easterly did acquire a number of Thompson submachine guns from Numrich Arms over the years. I spoke to Mr. Easterly on the telephone several years ago. 

Thank you for the update!

The paperwork does indeed show Ivy Armament out of WI on it also!

On 6/29/2024 at 4:36 PM, Got Uzi said:

It shouldn’t be an issue transferring to you from the estate, but expect it to take awhile….also be a little proactive, take photos of the gun with a tape measure next to it, pictures of the serial number and markings to confirm all the information on the the Form 5. Since it has not transferred in so long, they will want to confirm it is what the paperwork and records say it is. Supplying said photos and such will save a lot of back and forth mailings. 
 

Also, when the gun is transferred to you, the Form 1 will have to be filed on paper as the eform system is still not setup to handle a reactivation via eform yet. 
 

Another method to your process is the one you described, but the other way a DEWAT can be handled is to have the estate Form 5 it to an 07/02 who will reactivate it, file a Form 2 then it can be Form 3 to your dealer where a Form 4 can be done. While it sounds more complicated, it would be faster given this route the gun would be able to be transferred back to you via the eform system which is much faster. So the process would look like this:

Form 5 from estate to 07/02 (paper form)

Form 2 at the 07/02 to reactivate (eform)

Form 3 to a Class III in your state (eform)

Form 4 back to you all done (eform) 

This method would save you several months of waiting and get the gun running faster. 

So a form 5 to the current owner and then another one to me could be avoided entirely by going the above route?

I know this is a loaded question, but any idea what kind of time frame I'm looking at for the various steps?

On 6/29/2024 at 5:14 PM, Frank Iannamico said:

Looks like it has an M1A1 mag catch, if your going to use drums you will need to replace it.

Thanks for the heads up! I've got a couple drums for my SA Thompsons. I would like to be able to eventually use them on this one also.

 

Other than the mag catch does everything else parts/finish wise look correct? 

 

I appreciate all the help. I plan to shoot the tar out of it when the time comes!

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7 hours ago, GoodStuff said:

T

 

...Other than the mag catch does everything else parts/finish wise look correct? 

 

 

Your gun would originally have had plain paddle-style pivot (selector) and safety rather than the later pin style currently installed. Those were not introduced until the M1A1 was adopted. See my gun above for pics of these.

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1 hour ago, TSMGguy said:

Your gun would originally have had plain paddle-style pivot (selector) and safety rather than the later pin style currently installed. Those were not introduced until the M1A1 was adopted. See my gun above for pics of these.

what is the difference exactly?  the pictures look the same
 

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On 6/29/2024 at 2:51 PM, TD. said:

Congratulations!!!

Make 5 copies of that Form 5! I would assume it is an older IRS Form 5 with "NOTICE" only to the IRS, not approval. I am curious if the seller was Numrich Arms?

I know it sounds simple but the tax free transfer can get very complicated. The good news is the Thompson submachine gun was lawfully registered to the father and stayed in or with the family. Hopefully, there is also a Will and the son is listed as the Executor and the sole beneficiary. If not, ATF may want the son to reopen the estate in probate. Or not. It is very difficult to say what hoops the ATF will want the son to jump through to effect the transfer to him. The ATF may accept a copy of the Will, a copy of the death certificate, a copy of the original IRS Form 5 and the new Form 5 and quickly approve transfer. You and the son will not know until the paperwork is filed. But the Thompson is not contraband and should transfer at some point in time. The transfer from the deceased father to the son is the part that can be problematic. After it is in the son's name, the other steps you mention should be easy.  

Others on this forum, including some long time dealers, will have much more experience in this type of situation than me. Give them time to chime in before proceeding. You want all your ducks in row before attempting transfer.

Let us know what happens.



what would happen to the gun if there were no heirs at all?

everybody I know who died had family who laid down rubber on the drive over to the reading of the will

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