1928 WH doesn't run

[2 LONG IN THE FOUL]

I just got on this board as a member but I've been browsing for some time now. Trying to figure out why this Thompson

1928 that I purchased can't put more than a few short burst together before jamming . Both stick and drum have the same disappointing results.

I opened up the receiver and inspected the internals everything seemed to be there and working. Cleaned , oiled  and then while comparing my parts to

those illustrated on this forum and some you tube videos  I noticed they were very different. I included photos of them. Has anyone else found parts that looked like these 

also. My main concern is the blish lock without the wings. Why would this look like this. Taking off the wings would keep it from running inside the channels in the receiver.

Could it be that this was done because the channels are not right.  The bolt is also strange looking and the buffer is unlike the others I saw. At any rate I have ordered USGI replacement parts . Everything except recoil spring and  another barrel. I'm interested in any comments you may have  Thanks

[katanafred]

Welcome to the board!! Yes - as a fellow WH 1928 owner, I can confirm that your first order of business is to replace all those internals with USGI parts and see how things work from there. It is ESPECIALLY important that you replace the recoil spring pilot rod with a USGI part for the sake of safety! That being said, you will also find that not all your USGI magazines will always work right away because unless you find some NOS, a lot of the magazines have been used and abused over time, but they can be fixed.

From your photos, your gun internals appear to have been modified by a company that used to claim they could improve rates of fire, etc of WH TSMGs in the past by cutting off the ears of the Blish lock and lightening the bolt among other things ...

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you buy Tom Davis' book, "Thompson: Colt's, West Hurley's & More"

Good luck & enjoy!

Edited June 30, 2024 by katanafred
fix typo error

[Bridgeport28A1]

Welcome to the board.

It appears to be a GunMachines “speed bolt”. If you search GunMachines you will find threads related to your modified parts.

The advice is to not use these modified parts.

Here are a couple of threads on GunMachines modified Thompson parts. There are more if you search.

 

 

[TSMGguy]

Not mentioned is the type of ammo used. Granted, there've been a number of modifications, but these guns were designed to use 230 gr. FMJ M1911 ball ammo. It's the benchmark for determining Thompson operability.  

[Rekraps]

Wow, you guys are on top of this. Great information! I be getting smart on WH 1928's!

[TD.]

2 LONG IN THE FOUL,

Welcome to the Thompson forum.

I feel your pain! I too am a 1928 West Hurley owner. You are not the first WH owner to post about a poor or non-running WH Thompson submachine gun. I answer all your questions in my fourth book:

I guarantee the chapters on the West Hurley Thompson guns will be very informative and beneficial to you. I am away from home at the moment and recommend Amazon.com for fastest delivery.

[SP Sarge]

Ditch that bolt, blish lock, and actuator for sure. My blish lock in my West Hurley had the ears ground off as well when I bought it. Fortunately that was the only thing monkied with.

As far as your stoppages check the recoil spring as well. Look for flat edges on the sides of the coil...sign of excessive wear, and measure it. If it's under 10.5 inches replace it. 

[reconbob]

         I would not try to draw any conclusions until you replace the modified parts with

correct original parts. However, using a bronze lock with the ears cut off does not automatically

mean the gun will jam. This was a standard modification by the British for Thompsons used

in the desert during WW2.

         If you can fire short bursts, you should be able to fire long bursts. How does the gun jam?

If it jams when feeding - a cartridge chambers, or almost chambers - but does not fire check the

wall of the case and if there is a scrape mark the mouth of the chamber is too sharp and the

case is scraping against the corner of the chamber mouth slowing the bolt down so the gun does

not fire.

        If the jam is because the fired case does not eject and the next cartridge in the mag 

starts to feed and hits the fired case causing the jam - its short recoil. Short recoil is going

to be caused by under-powered ammo, or a shot out barrel. The easy check for this is set the

gun on semi and fire one round. The bolt should lock fully to the rear. There are two sear notches

on the bolt, and the cocking knob should be all the way to the rear partially in the takedown hole

for the actuator, not 3/4" in front  of the takedown hole. 

      I do not know what is considered "hot" factory ammo today. We test fire guns here with Federal

.45 ACP ball. You can always get some G.I. and use that for your test.

Bob

Edited June 30, 2024 by reconbob

[katanafred]

One more thought ... if your WH TSMG was indeed modified by "Gun Machines" back in the day which appears to be the case based on your photos, you might want have your receiver thoroughly inspected - maybe even magnafluxed - for cracks.
 

[Ryo]

Replace those inners.. My WH runs great with replacement parts. 

While your waiting for the parts, take a pair of calipers and measure the depth into your receiver this was one of the issue of WH where they either milled too deeply or not enough. Compare our list that value here to determine if that is right. 

[2 LONG IN THE FOUL]

11 hours ago, Ryo said:

Replace those inners.. My WH runs great with replacement parts. 

While your waiting for the parts, take a pair of calipers and measure the depth into your receiver this was one of the issue of WH where they either milled too deeply or not enough. Compare our list that value here to determine if that is right. 

Much thanks to all that replied. The possibilities look a lot better now for my WH . Waiting  for the parts to arrive . Don't really know if I need a barrel but haven't found any reasonably priced USGI finned threaded barrels out there .New old stock/ used/ reproductions ??  Is the Cutts Compensator on a WH threaded or pinned? Any recommendations for good vendors would be appreciated. 

[StrangeRanger]

Green mountain barrels

https://www.gmriflebarrel.com/military-barrels/thompson-machine-gun-barrels

[Ryo]

Since your waiting for parts, I'd hold off on buying a barrel to see, unless you just want a spare. 

[Chappy]

12 hours ago, 2 LONG IN THE FOUL said:

Don't really know if I need a barrel but haven't found any reasonably priced USGI finned threaded barrels out there .New old stock/ used/ reproductions ??  Is the Cutts Compensator on a WH threaded or pinned? Any recommendations for good vendors would be appreciated. 

As an owner of WHs that did not run. Deerslayer brought both of mine into spec and great running order. I sent him the USGI internals and he worked his magic getting them to run like a Thompson should

For a very reasonable cost, Dan made my Thompsons safe and reliable. You may want to give him a call.

Chappy

P.S. How could the folks at WH sell a gun that just did not run? You would think they would have enough pride in their craft to put out a winner and not a dud out of the chute.

 

 

[TSMGguy]

Yeah, had the same problem with my WH M1. It wouldn't fire three rounds without a stoppage. The silver lining was that the original purchaser was disgusted with it and sold it to me for a nice price. A trip to PK for some of his magic squared it away. It's a thing of beauty and ruggedly reliable today. It's all GI except for the frame and the receiver. Everything else came from a donor unissued early M1 TSMG parts kit from Omega Systems. Remember them?

[2 LONG IN THE FOUL]

Thanks RYO, I like the idea of mic'ing out the receiver depth. I didn't get the last part where you were telling me where to find the spec's

On 6/30/2024 at 8:02 PM, Ryo said:

Replace those inners.. My WH runs great with replacement parts. 

While your waiting for the parts, take a pair of calipers and measure the depth into your receiver this was one of the issue of WH where they either milled too deeply or not enough. Compare our list that value here to determine if that is right. 

 

[2 LONG IN THE FOUL]

Thanks RYO, I like the idea of mic'ing out the receiver depth. I didn't get the last part where you were telling me where to find the spec's

[StrangeRanger]

https://web.archive.org/web/20160402100540/http://nfatoys.com/tsmg/pdf/6535512.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20240629095445/http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/pdf/6535512-1.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20160402100816/http://nfatoys.com/tsmg/pdf/6535512-2.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20240629224608/http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/pdf/6535512-3.pdf

[TD.]

2 LONG IN THE FOUL,

Now that you are purchasing parts and on your way to getting your West Hurley Thompson running properly, you should consider attending the upcoming Hill family All Thompson Show & Shoot for 2024. It is a private event for members of The American Thompson Association. The below link will provide you contact information of who to reach out to and information about the Show & Shoot. If you like Thompson guns, you will find the experience very informative and entertaining. I guarantee a good time!

 

[Doug Quaid]

On 6/30/2024 at 12:02 PM, reconbob said:

        

      I do not know what is considered "hot" factory ammo today. We test fire guns here with Federal

.45 ACP ball. You can always get some G.I. and use that for your test.

Bob

I bought a chronograph.  For some reason my handloads always seemed to be running too hot in my Thompson, so I tried some factory ammo as a baseline.

Speer Lawman 230 gr FMJ ran 814 fps average from a 1911 colt and 898 fps from an M1A1.  

Blazer Brass 230 gr FMJ ran 851 fps average from a 1911 colt and 940 fps from an M1A1.

They both had really nice standard deviation, the velocities were very uniform.  Also, the increase in velocity from the 5" barrel to the 10" barrel was right about what I expected, based on other testing I have seen published.

If I remember correctly, the specs for USGI 45 acp ball ammo was 830 fps +/- 15 fps from the 1911.

I want to test some Remington UMC, that ammo is always really, really weak.  I have found that Federal American Eagle is pretty hot ammo in 9mm.

Turns out that my handloads are running hot for all powders that I use.  I think maybe my scale is a little off.   Or maybe it's just a coincidence.  Sometimes one lot of powder is drier than others and there is variation in density.  

So anyway, if the OP were to use Blazer Brass 230 gr FMJ, that would be slightly hotter than mil-spec, based on the check that I did.  And that ammo is cheap and easy to find.

Edited July 4, 2024 by Doug Quaid