Shooters BEWARE of Winchester ammo!!!

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

I had ejection issues recently with 9mm ammo in my MP38. I have the gun about 15 years and never had a single stoppage. Last time out two times it failed to eject the empty. Switched ammo and ran fine. Did not check the brass unfortunately as at the time I thought it was the gun. Will keep an eye on things going forward. Guns are way to  valuable to damage especially guns with matching barrels or guns that are very difficult to change barrels in like a Thompson 

[Rich.Urich]

I shoot about 1000+ rounds per month.  About half of the ammo I shoot is Winchester 115gr. Target ammo in my pistols with no problem.  I might have had 2 or 3 failure to fire so far.  I also shoot a lot of 124gr.

[Got Uzi]

Pistols are closed breach/closed bolt where are this problem I’m almost certain is due to the weapons being open bolt. 

[TSMGguy]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:32 PM, Got Uzi said:

Pistols are closed breach/closed bolt where are this problem I’m almost certain is due to the weapons being open bolt. 

Agree, we're looking at some sort of quality control problem here. 

Edited August 8, 2024 by TSMGguy

[StrangeRanger]

It would be informative if someone could run a Brinell hardness test on the failed cases and on some fired Blazer Brass cases for comparison.  I'd almost bet the farm that the failed Winchester cases are a whole lot harder

Edited August 8, 2024 by StrangeRanger

[LSU Tiger]

This is very interesting.  After reading the posts, my money is on improper annealing of the brass,  It was allowed to work harden and the powder detonation was enough to burst the case.

[SP Sarge]

Any update from Win?

[MS Collector]

So . . . is there any commercially available .45 ACP ammo here in the US that is known to be safe and reliable in open-bolt guns such as the TSMG?  I just recently completed what has been a 2-3 year journey with Colt TSMG #4971 to get her back up and running (which included generous help from folks on this Board).  I'm now ready for some recreational shooting and need to stock up on ammo.

Based on this thread I am going to avoid Winchester.  What ammo should I buy?

[Got Uzi]

Blazer 

S&B 

MagTech (NOT MaxxTech)

ArmsCorp

Aquila

[StrangeRanger]

Blazer BRASS not the aluminum

[MS Collector]

Thanks, guys - the ammo recommendations are much appreciated!

[SP Sarge]

I've been running almost nothing but Speer Lawman TSMJ. Occasionally S&B and Armscor.

[spall]

21 minutes ago, SP Sarge said:

I've been running almost nothing but Speer Lawman TSMJ. Occasionally S&B and Armscor.

Lawman is good stuff. I've been shooting it almost exclusively through my .40 handguns for the last 15 years, and now that I think of it... I've never had a malfunction.

I just knocked on wood.

[TD.]

While late coming to the party with Sellier & Bellot (SB), I have found SB 230 grain ball ammo runs perfectly in my Thompson. 

[StrangeRanger]

FWIW the biggest difference between CCI Blazer Brass, Speer Lawman and Federal Black Box is probably the headstamp.  All are made by the same company so the case metallurgy is almost certainly the same and the powder and bullets will be similar if not identical

[Rekraps]

Which leaves the Winchester White box issue still open. I saw an old video on YouTube mentioning the same thing....

[TSMGguy]

On 8/30/2024 at 1:38 PM, MS Collector said:

 

Based on this thread I am going to avoid Winchester.  What ammo should I buy?

In many years of shooting, I've never had a problem with Winchester 230 gr. FMJ .45 ammo. I'm not about to start avoiding it now. I believe Winchester had a quality control problem, which they'll quickly identify and correct. 

[Mattg203]

I run PMC .45 ACP brass and have had zero problems in my AOC 1928A1 

[Moose1]

So, after reading this, no more Winchester through the Thompson.    Any concerns using it in the 1911?

Like Got Uzi, I have a bunch of it.

Thanks Moose

[john]

Nobody to date has commented on the "very aggressive" crimps evident in these cases ....much firmer crimp than most I've seen.

 

Any comments?

 

I too have a crap load of Winchester white box and nary a problem with it, but none from the two listed lots.

[SP Sarge]

On 10/19/2024 at 8:01 PM, Moose1 said:

So, after reading this, no more Winchester through the Thompson.    Any concerns using it in the 1911?

Like Got Uzi, I have a bunch of it.

Thanks Moose

Moose, it's fine to run in a semi auto. It's when used in a full auto that the thin cases become a problem and result in failures.

I have white box 45....that's for my 1911s and glock when practicing for qualification.

My Thompsons only get fed Speer Lawman. To do otherwise for me is like buying a 150k Aston Martin.... then using 82 octane 25% ethanol gas and oli changes at walmart auto center. And later wondering why you're having engine performance issues. Garbage in garbage out holds true.

[Rekraps]

55 minutes ago, SP Sarge said:

Moose, it's fine to run in a semi auto. It's when used in a full auto that the thin cases become a problem and result in failures.

I have white box 45....that's for my 1911s and glock when practicing for qualification.

My Thompsons only get fed Speer Lawman. To do otherwise for me is like buying a 150k Aston Martin.... then using 82 octane 25% ethanol gas and oli changes at walmart auto center. And later wondering why you're having engine performance issues. Garbage in garbage out holds true.

Correct. I agree that semi-auto running will be fine.

[TheMexican]

Ive reloaded 45 ACP for 20 yrs now, just makes me that much more enthusiastic to know with these random ammo issues. I would be sick to my guts if it damaged my TSMG at the hands of factory ammo. I cut down on that problem by making my own. Something to consider. Oddly enough, what got me reloading years ago was an overcharged 45ACP round I shot from a G36 at an outdoor range. I think it was Federal though, rang my hand pretty good, F'd up the Glock but was able to fix it.

 

[Got Uzi]

It’s the brass that is the issue so it doesn’t matter if you are relaxing or not-a bad casing is a bad casing and it’ll screw you up pretty quick. The only thing about shooting factory is if you gun goes “boom” they are on the hook. If your gun goes “boom” using reloads, you are SOL

[TheMexican]

5 minutes ago, Got Uzi said:

It’s the brass that is the issue so it doesn’t matter if you are relaxing or not-a bad casing is a bad casing and it’ll screw you up pretty quick. The only thing about shooting factory is if you gun goes “boom” they are on the hook. If your gun goes “boom” using reloads, you are SOL

Very true, BUT I'd rather be in control of a majority of the process of ammo making. Of course, I'm at the mercy of the components I'm using but brass that is inferior or in this case out of  spec on a "chemistry" level is a rarity in itself, probably single digit percentages. Overcharged ammo is the usual from my experience. That being said, I use new brass when I load for the Tommy Gun. Also, not real sure how one would go after the manufacture for damages if it clearly states on the box "use at your own risk" Sounds like a recipe to make lawyers rich to me. Im not saying everyone should reload, clearly reloads get a bad name from crappy reloaders, I'm just saying I do because It allows me to be in control mostly. 20 years of it, no "boom" on my end.