M1928A1 Trigger frame question

[reconbob]

   I have a M1928A1 trigger frame with a serial #542XXX. It has the later square

T-slot for the magazine. The safety and rocker pivot are the later "pin" style levers.

Are these correct for a late frame like this? Or should the frame have the flat paddle

style levers? Or no way of knowing? Not restoring a gun, just curious...

Bob

[Chip]

Bob,

Here is a discussion of the square slot receivers.  541933 (dewat in UK), 489727 and 492XX9 are all pictured with the paddle style levers.

https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27117-savage-1928-tsmg-on-gunbroker-square-magazine-slots-on-late-savage-frames/

[Bridgeport28A1]

Paddle style levers on a 1928A1.

The very early M1 Thompsons also used paddle style levers for a short period of production.

 

 

[Rekraps]

Are you guys sure? I have seen 1928’s with pin levers and understand that this is not uncommon at all. 

[Got Uzi]

It all depends if it was rebuilt and if it was, what parts were on hand at the time. 

[Lewisfan]

486xxx smooth barrel, L sight, squared off T slot, paddle levers, original finish, matching. 

[Rekraps]

Picture from Frank's article on the 1928A1...

 

[StrangeRanger]

You're looking at 80 or more year old guns that were built with parts on hand at the time, re-built or at least refitted probably several times in the interim.  There really is no definitive answer as to what is original or as to whether the current configuration is the original configuratiln

[Rekraps]

57 minutes ago, StrangeRanger said:

You're looking at 80 or more year old guns that were built with parts on hand at the time, re-built or at least refitted probably several times in the interim.  There really is no definitive answer as to what is original or as to whether the current configuration is the original configuratiln

Ah, the voice of reason. With this, I am 100% in agreement. What I see is a very nice Savage lower. 

[Rekraps]

Now that I think about it, I strongly suspect that the "Paddle" levers may in fact be a conspiracy by Squid-heads. Those Navy type can't be trusted.

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

I believe the 1928A1 military Thompsons left the Savage and Bridgeport factories with paddle style levers. They also left the factory with no crossbolt rear stocks. 

[Rekraps]

3 minutes ago, Bridgeport28A1 said:

I believe the 1928A1 military Thompsons left the Savage and Bridgeport factories with paddle style levers. They also left the factory with no crossbolt rear stocks. 

Gotcha on the crossbolt, but not so sure on the paddle style levers. I've asked Frank for his opinion. I will also say that his articles and others say that just about anything was possible given the volume and demand for guns during that period. Even so, if a gun has the stick levers, it is no less authentic. 

[Rekraps]

So, I'm waiting on Frank to chime in, but in the meantime I called Andrewski to get his take on the 1928's and he opined that in his experience, almost all rebuilds (arsenal) have pin type BUT he has seen many non-rebuilds with pin types also (although there is no way to say of they are original from the factory configuration). He prefers paddle (easier to use) but both types are original and neither add nor detract from the value of the gun. As Stranger Ranger says, 80+ years, not that good of documentation on this topic and who knows what variations actually came out of the factory. 

[Rekraps]

Frank responded and his position is that all 1928's Savage/Bridgeport left the factor with paddle controls. He said, never say never, but along with Andrewski's view, I think we are safe to say that 1928's, OEM (not rebuilt) had paddle safety and actuators from the factory. Pin style was for rebuilds, field repairs etc. 

Again, it does not detract from the value of the guns, as both configurations are "real". 

[Rekraps]

18 hours ago, Bridgeport28A1 said:

I believe the 1928A1 military Thompsons left the Savage and Bridgeport factories with paddle style levers. They also left the factory with no crossbolt rear stocks. 

So, you are correct my friend.

[TD.]

Bridgeport28A1 has answered the question based on all known information. Yes, you can believe what you want but all the very early M1 Thompson submachine guns I have seen in original configuration have paddle levers, a non-crossbolt butt stock and a 1928 style magazine catch release lever (made for a drum). M1 Thompson guns in original condition are difficult to find but they do exist. I have never studied the M1 or M1A1 Thompson guns but do rely on what I have observed and Frank's American Thunder books. On Page 163 of American Thunder, Third Edition, Frank states, "Early M1's were manufactured using the same paddle type rocker pivot and safety levers, without the knurled surfaces, as used on the late production U.S. M19298A1 model. These were eventually replaced with the simpler two-piece pin type." 

There is a picture at the bottom of page 163 of a Savage M1 Thompson, NO. 73224, with paddle levers, non-crossbolt stock and a 1928 style magazine catch. 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation in the Thompson community. If you are going to have a position on a subject in the Thompson community, I always suggest first looking at the known published information. The published information may not be correct or more accurately - complete. But it is a starting point.  Those that believe pin type levers were installed on the late M1928A1 Thompson submachine guns from the factory, find some documentation or pictures of late guns in original configuration that indicate this. I am very open minded on this and every topic. But I am not interested in what Andrewski opines as documentation of anything. His opinion is nice to know and his work is impeccable, but he is not an historian when it comes to the technical aspects of the Thompson submachine gun. 

The above picture of A.O. 153119x is not a 1928A1 Thompson submachine gun. It is a 1928AC Thomson submachine gun manufactured from parts by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries after the Model of 1928 Thompson submachine gun was out of production at the two factories.

If your really interested in the M1/M1A1 Thompson submachine gun spend 40 bucks and buy Frank's, Amercian Thunder, Third Edition. It is the authority on the subject. But don't just read it, study it. Highlight information, write in it, dog ear it, but more importantly, use it. If your interested in the 1928AC Thompson, buy a copy of, A Thompson Compendium, 40 bucks directly from me, 50 bucks at Amazon. These books are not collector's items. Use them to become well informed on the many different variations of the Thompson submachine gun. 

All good stuff!!! 

[Rekraps]

1 hour ago, TD. said:

Bridgeport28A1 has answered the question based on all known information. Yes, you can believe what you want but all the very early M1 Thompson submachine guns I have seen in original configuration have paddle levers, a non-crossbolt butt stock and a 1928 style magazine catch release lever (made for a drum). M1 Thompson guns in original condition are difficult to find but they do exist. I have never studied the M1 or M1A1 Thompson guns but do rely on what I have observed and Frank's American Thunder books. On Page 163 of American Thunder, Third Edition, Frank states, "Early M1's were manufactured using the same paddle type rocker pivot and safety levers, without the knurled surfaces, as used on the late production U.S. M19298A1 model. These were eventually replaced with the simpler two-piece pin type." 

There is a picture at the bottom of page 163 of a Savage M1 Thompson, NO. 73224, with paddle levers, non-crossbolt stock and a 1928 style magazine catch. 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation in the Thompson community. If you are going to have a position on a subject in the Thompson community, I always suggest first looking at the known published information. The published information may not be correct or more accurately - complete. But it is a starting point.  Those that believe pin type levers were installed on the late M1928A1 Thompson submachine guns from the factory, find some documentation or pictures of late guns in original configuration that indicate this. I am very open minded on this and every topic. But I am not interested in what Andrewski opines as documentation of anything. His opinion is nice to know and his work is impeccable, but he is not an historian when it comes to the technical aspects of the Thompson submachine gun. 

The above picture of A.O. 153119x is not a 1928A1 Thompson submachine gun. It is a 1928AC Thomson submachine gun manufactured from parts by the Auto-Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries after the Model of 1928 Thompson submachine gun was out of production at the two factories.

If your really interested in the M1/M1A1 Thompson submachine gun spend 40 bucks and buy Frank's, Amercian Thunder, Third Edition. It is the authority on the subject. But don't just read it, study it. Highlight information, write in it, dog ear it, but more importantly, use it. If your interested in the 1928AC Thompson, buy a copy of, A Thompson Compendium, 40 bucks directly from me, 50 bucks at Amazon. These books are not collector's items. Use them to become well informed on the many different variations of the Thompson submachine gun. 

All good stuff!!! 

See my previous post to Bridgeport28A1. 

Sorry you are not interested in anyone's opinion. I think the process worked just fine and the result was as aforementioned. Indeed I consulted with Frank which led to my final post. I will always consult people in this business whom I know to be knowledgeable and experienced. Personally, I make a habit of listening to everyone, and filter the information as in comes in. Without various positions to consider, one never learns the truth. A perfect example was the question of whether or not Lanchesters were ever Parkerized. Many held that no, they were all blued. Come to find out that a person who worked in the Sterling Armament Company Factory had posted an article in 2005 where he speaks to factory arsenal refinished Lanchesters that were Parked. Everyone benefited from this "newly discovered" news.

[TD.]

Rekraps,

I did not say I was not interested in "anyone's opinion." What I said was Andrewski's opinion on this issue was irrelevant. I did not have to consult with Frank on such a simple question; I read his book. See quotation above. (Do you have his book?) The answer was obvious all along. Long time forum member Bridgeport28A1 stated the correct answer early in the thread.

I also listen to all the information on every topic and quickly filtered out your early opinion. There was no other position to consider on this question because no one offered any additional information to consider - only conjecture. That said, I applaud your efforts on the Lanchester finish question. You went right to the source and provided information that was not available in a published format (I assume because I know nothing about Lanchester submachine guns).  

[Frank Iannamico]

Well, the pin type control levers came out with the M1A1 Thompson, at that time the 1928 Model was out of production.

[Rekraps]

1 hour ago, Frank Iannamico said:

Well, the pin type control levers came out with the M1A1 Thompson, at that time the 1928 Model was out of production.

Glad i asked you! 

[gijive]

On 8/11/2024 at 2:04 PM, Rekraps said:

Ah, the voice of reason. With this, I am 100% in agreement. What I see is a very nice Savage lower. 

Rekraps,

The grip frame you show in the picture you posted is not a Savage frame.  It is an Auto-Ordnance made frame.  The Full Auto is engraved on one line, not like the Savage frames that have it on two lines.

The AC guns, like the one pictured were sold by Maguire Industries and were put together from end of contract parts and sold to law enforcement agencies, mainly Post-WWII.  They were all 1928 Models.

Edited August 12 by gijive

[Rekraps]

15 hours ago, gijive said:

Rekraps,

The grip frame you show in the picture you posted is not a Savage frame.  It is an Auto-Ordnance made frame.  The Full Auto is engraved on one line, not like the Savage frames that have it on two lines.

The AC guns, like the one pictured were sold by Maguire Industries and were put together from end of contract parts and sold to law enforcement agencies, mainly Post-WWII.  They were all 1928 Models.

Thanks, I knew that. Sometimes there are so many pics and concurrent discussions that I get things mixed up. 

[Rekraps]

16 hours ago, gijive said:

Rekraps,

The grip frame you show in the picture you posted is not a Savage frame.  It is an Auto-Ordnance made frame.  The Full Auto is engraved on one line, not like the Savage frames that have it on two lines.

The AC guns, like the one pictured were sold by Maguire Industries and were put together from end of contract parts and sold to law enforcement agencies, mainly Post-WWII.  They were all 1928 Models.

That was in reference to the original pic by reconbob.

[gijive]

21 hours ago, Rekraps said:

That was in reference to the original pic by reconbob.

Okay, I understand now.