quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 8, 2024 Report Share Posted October 8, 2024 Can anyone tell me how many Thompsons the US ordered prior to February 1940? The photo is partly for attention, but also slightly related to my research in to British issue sub machine guns. They’re all British contract, commonwealth issue. These came out of India. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 8, 2024 Report Share Posted October 8, 2024 quartermaster-1939-69. You have asked a very broad question. I am going to assume you mean the United Stated Military. A beginning time or date would certainly help. The January 1940 ending date is perfect. I am going to give it a shot. According to the lifelong research conducted by Gordon Herigstad and contained in his 6th (and last) Edition of, Colt Thompson Submachine Guns, Serial Numbers and Histories, the following Colt Thompson guns were ordered or obtained by the: United States Marine Corps: 732 Thompson submachine guns - Page 818 United States Coast Guard - 118 Thompson submachine guns - Page 780 United States Navy - 118 Thompson submachine guns - Page 721 Springfield Armory - 86 Thompson submachine guns - Pages 355/356 All the above guns are of Colt manufacture. Gordon can document each of the Colt Thompson guns listed above by serial number but does state there could have been a few more smaller orders or acquisitions. For example, the United States Marine Corps would have put captured Thompson guns from the Nicaragua campaign to use and also built compete Thompson guns from spare part receivers. As documented by Frank Iannamico in his American Thunder II, Page 169, the first large order by the United States Army occurred on June 30, 1939. The order was for 951 Thompson submachine guns and parts. These guns are of Colt manufacture and are uniformly marked with the letters U.S. and A1 after the Model of 1928 (8 overstamp the number 1) nomenclature on the left side receiver. There were no more orders United States military orders prior to February 1, 1940. Of Note, Frank also documented a requisition order of 8 Thompson submachine guns by the United States Marine Corp on January 16, 1940 - Page 168. It is unknown if these 8 Colt manufactured Thompson guns are included in Gordon's numbers, above. The United States Army also acquired a small number of Colt guns for testing in the 1930s. It is assumed these are the Springfield Armory Thompson guns listed above. What I have missed? If your main interest is in Bristish acquisitions of the Thompson submachine gun, I recommend, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. The first documented British military acquisition was 6 Colt manufactured Thompson submachine guns sometime in late December 1939 or January 1940 for the British Expeditionary Force - Pages 8 & 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 8, 2024 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2024 That's fantastic. Thank you so much. It's also significantly fewer than I thought it would be! My interest isn't really Thompsons at all. I've been doing search in to the Lanchester for a book, and its development is interwoven with the purchase of the Thompson so as a result I've read all the British adoption files on the Thompson from the National Archives. There's a reoccurring reason given for pushing to place further orders for the Thompson, and that's due to finance being invested in the production for Thompson guns. I've been unable to find out exactly what is meant by this. I presumed that the British government had in some way invested/funded Auto Ordnance to ensure they could start/maintain production capacity. Having now seen the low numbers of guns the US (all branches) had ordered, it seems like a cash investment would have been a boost to the company. The Lanchester story I found remarkable to discover, particularly as it nearly didn't happen, but I got the sense throughout that British investment propped up Thompson production long enough for the British orders to cement production and lined up for the future US purchases. I may be very wrong...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 9, 2024 Report Share Posted October 9, 2024 Congratulations on your research for a book on the Lanchester submachine gun. I know very little about the Lanchester but always liked their appearance. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation was a financial flop. In the summer of 1939, there was still approximately 4600 guns in inventory at Colt's; near one-third of the total production of 15,000 Thompson guns. During the past 19 years, there was never a really large order from any one customer. Long story short, J. Russell Maguire gained control of Auto-Ordnance in July 1939 - see The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, (TGTMTTR) 1969, by Willam Helmer for a history of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation, later Maguire Industries. Russell Maguire had the foresight to see a war brewing in Europe and contracted with Savage Arms in December 1939 to put the Thompson submachine gun back into production. There were still Colt guns in inventory when the contract for 10,000 new Thompson guns with Savage Arms was signed. The British first order of Thompson guns in February 1940 was for only 750 guns. Savage Arms was a long-time arms manufacturer in the USA and did not need financial assistance for the first order. The British second order was for only an additional 2,000 guns on May 14, 1940. Three days later the British became on-board with the Thompson gun and placed an order for and additional 26,250 Thompson guns. Many more orders followed in the subsequent months and years. The British were initially buying the guns under a program called cash & carry. This all ended with the passage of Lend-Lease in March 1941. Within a short period of time, the US Government took control over production and distribution of the Thompson guns manufactured at Savage Arms. Auto-Ordnance Corporation opened their own factory in August 1941 to boost the production of Thompson guns. It has been nearly 10 years since I wrote Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story (GB-TTGS) with the invaluable assistance of forum member James West. I don't recall any financial assistance from Great Britain being offered for the production of the guns. However, I do remember some capital assistance was sought and received for the expansion of the ammunition factories, Federal Arms and Peters come to mind. I believe the British Purchasing Commision (BPC) was involved with all of this. I don't remember anything noteworthy about the Lanchester but remember the British really wanted to move to the STEN submachine gun. But British production was not keeping up with demand, thus more Thompson guns were needed. One area the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) often harped about to their superiors was the need to place future orders of Thompson guns to maintain factory production. Of course, this involved the commitment of funds. The MoS was worried if future orders stopped, the factories may move on to manufacture other arms and never returned to the production of the much needed Thompson guns. Review of the all the memorandums, telegrams, letters, etc., from the British National Archives provided a pretty good picture of what was happening. GB-TTGS has 358 footnotes. Most everything is documented. We may be looking at the same documentation. Provide me some dates or identifying descriptions of the documents you are using to form your hypothesis, and I will see if I have the documents in my research files. If you are going to link the World War II production of the Thompson submachine gun to the Lanchester, I believe you really need to understand the British procurement. GB-TTGS and TGTMTTR will provide an excellent basis of what was happening during this time period for you to build on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
signal_4 Posted October 9, 2024 Report Share Posted October 9, 2024 Glad you came over here from FB and posted it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 9, 2024 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2024 I have your book sitting next to my arm chair as I type! Fantastic book. Below is one of the letters with the reference to the investment and development of the Thompson gun. From memory I've seen four others, including the last ditch attempt from the MoS to stop the Lanchester (Schmeisser) production. I have copies, the below just happened to the be the first I came across. I read the meaning to be that some considerable lump sum has been outlaid to the states to help expand/maintain Thompson production to ensure future supply to Britain, however do you think it's just saying that Britain has already placed and paid for past orders and that was the sum they were referring to? I will dig out the MoS letter, from memory it'll be from early 1941. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 10, 2024 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2024 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 10, 2024 Report Share Posted October 10, 2024 Thank you for the kind words about, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story (GB-TTGS). I can tell that you have done some in-depth research by the two documents you posted. It has been a long time since I looked at the documentation James West found at the National Archives and provided to me. A book was never intended. The initial information sought was to document the production of the Model of 1928A or no compensator Thompson submachine gun by Savage Arms for Great Britain. This information resulted in a story in Small Arms Review (SAR) magazine in 2013. But James found so much more information! I believe I understand your theory of Great Britain helping America "develop" with "invested capital" the production of the Thompson submachine gun at Savage Arms in 1940. I don't think those words have the meaning you believe they do. You have to remember the 1920s Thompson submachine gun was obsolete in 1940 when it was placed back into production at Savage Arms. That said, the Thompson gun was a proven design that worked. Actually, it worked very well at its intended purpose. Most importantly, it was available - thanks to the foresight of J. Russell Maguire. After the German army showed the world the value of a submachine gun in 1939, the old military thinking about the submachine gun that wasted large amounts of low velocity pistol ammunition changed - and quickly. And Maguire had the only game in town with his Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Great Britain had placed orders and spent money for the entire factory production run of Thompson submachine guns until the end of 1940. Great Britain was not actually receiving the entire production run but that is a different story. Suffice to say, Great Britain was receiving the bulk of the production. The authorities in Great Britain really wanted locally produced submachine guns; the "Schmeizer" Lanchesters and STENS. However, delivery was of these weapons were many months away and Great Britian could not wait. They needed guns immediately. I believe what the authorities were worried about in August/September 1940 was without future orders (and expenditure of more capital), Savage Arms may move on to the manufacture of other weapons upon completion of the Thompson orders. Of course, that did not happen, and the issue became moot with the passage of the Lend Lease Act in March 1941. I did not find the two documents you posted in my documentation provided by James. However, I don't believe these documents changed anything I wrote on page 15 (The Air Ministry) and page 16 (No Additional Orders?). I encourage you to keep going with your research. Again, I do believe Great Britain did invest capitol to expand ammunition production in the America - Pages 66-69 (Ammunition - fuel for the Gangster Guns). I welcome your research and opinions. If the results change what I have written in GB-TTGS, so be it. I am very open minded and try to write stories that can be expanded on or added to in the future by other researchers. All good stuff!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 10, 2024 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2024 The Lanchester was always the focus of the research, however it was just because there was a certain amount of cross over with the Thompson that I pulled the Thompson files out. The investment surmise was due to the phrasing being quite vague in correspondence and that I couldn't find anything else on the matter more specific, so your knowledge is most welcome! The cross over was mainly due to the original Air Ministry Lanchester contract, which they dropped after the army promised them a loan of Thompsons, then got offered the S&W light rifle which as far as I can tell never actually arrived, and then reinstated the contract by which time the Sten was in production. Reading the correspondence I felt really sorry for them as there was a plea for automatic guns and no sign of any being delivered nearly a year after the original request. The Admiralty rejected the Thompson on some reasonably sound grounds and the Lanchester contract for 20,000 MkI guns was only pushed through when Winston himself stepped in, which might explain why he was gifted a presentation engraved gun. By the time Lanchester flow production actually started in January 1942 the Sten was on MkIII! Although it's written that Lanchester production finished in 1943, it didn't wrap up until 1945 with Boss dragging their contract out 2 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 11, 2024 Report Share Posted October 11, 2024 Do not allow my opinions to put a damper on your research. There may be more information that could buttress your thoughts. Or lead you down a different path. No one person has the answers to everything. I find your posts very serious and informative. There are Thompson purists that despise J. Russell Maguire. William Helmer painted a very poor picture of him in TGTMTTR. Regardless of his personality or personal life, he was way ahead of everyone when it came to the Thompson submachine gun. He also risked a large amount of his own money to gain control of Auto-Ordnance Corporation. The first contract with Savage Arms for 10,000 guns could have resulted in thousands of unsold Thompson guns, again in storage. Of course, that did not happen. Under Maguire's leadership, the stockholders, including the Thompson and Blish families, received enormous dividend payments during World War II. James West (Mk VII) may join in on this thread. He is very knowledgeable on all things British. Forum member StrangeRanger had a beautiful Lanchester display at the 2024 Thompson Collector's Association Show & Shoot. I remember him telling me about how he obtained a copy of a very rare Lanchester manual from Great Britian. If I had a question about Lanchester submachine guns, I would certainly turn to him or James West. There is also a Sten, Sterling, and Lanchester SMG Message Board on MachineGunBoards.com. Please continue to post. And let us know when your book is published. All my books are printed via Kindle Direct Publishing at KDP.com, an Amazon.com company. I find print on demand publishing an excellent platform for niche books about submachine guns. Hardcover is now an available option. Feel free to contact me directly at: tkd5501@fuse.net with questions, or if you just want to talk Thompson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autorotate Posted October 11, 2024 Report Share Posted October 11, 2024 What a great thread! It is also important to this discussion to remember what was happening at the time this correspondence was taking place. The B.E.F. had just been evacuated from Dunkirk with the loss of most of their heavy weapons and transport (June 1940). The air war that became known as the Battle of Britain was in full fury (July-October 1940) and Operation Seal Lion (sea-born invasion of Great Britain) was awaiting the successful outcome of the Luftwaffe over the Royal Air Force. A very real and imminent threat that there would be a successful German invasion and landing in Britain (hence a need for close in airfield defense) was foremost in the minds of military planners. The Royal Air Force was on its heels and very nearly combat ineffective due to the Luftwaffe bombing attacks on their airfields when the German air campaign shifted to London and giving them much needed breathing room to recover. The rest, as they say, is history and the R.A.F. prevailed over the sky’s of England and Operation Sea Lion was postponed indefinitely. So my question is, by the time the immediate need for submachine guns had passed, was production and delivery far enough along to make conversion or cancellation impractical or had the military usefulness of submachine guns been proven to make an important part of military doctrine? As Tom would say, “all good stuff!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted October 11, 2024 Report Share Posted October 11, 2024 Autorotate, Great question. As you can tell, I have really enjoyed this thread. I cannot give a complete answer to your question without going back and reading Great Britian - The Tommy Gun Story. I will say that the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) made an 11th and last order for 150,000 Thompson guns on September 26, 1941. There is no doubt the submachine gun became an important part of the military doctrine of all Allied Forces. Everybody wanted Tommy Guns during WWII. It took a long time for the production of submachine guns in Great Britain to meet the demand. Perhaps those that have purchased GB-TTGS will chime in with excerpts from the book that completely answer your question. For those that don't have a copy, it is a very inexpensive book ($29.99 at Amazon) or directly from me for $25 plus $5 shipping. Think Christmas present! I guarantee a good read. Not one word has ever been challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted October 11, 2024 Report Share Posted October 11, 2024 I am enjoying this conversation, and am glad the board attracts the discourse. Maybe the only thing I can add is that I have a French Lanchester manual in my collection. David Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartermaster-1939-69 Posted October 11, 2024 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2024 Ahhhhh, I can partly answer the military doctrine question. Yes, there was a tactical need for a sub machine gun, however that wasn't the main reason they placed such large orders. A memo dated December 1940 states that there were 1,550,000 .303 rifles available. Projected production for 1941 was estimated to be 180,000 which left a deficit of 170,000. This didn't include 200,000 rifles India had requested. Rifle production wasn't expected to have caught up with demand until the end of 1942 so whilst the sub machine guns (well, machine carbines) were originally ordered for a tactical reason, the main reason for their production and purchase was to relieve and supplement rifle production. The admiralty stated that they treated the issue of the Lanchesters and rifles as interchangeable and there was a question about whether they gave up all their rifles and replaced them with Lanchesters. I can't remember which file it was in but there a letter regarding Thompsons being phased over to India when quantities of Sten became available. I'll confess I skimmed over it slightly, however I presumed it was for similar reasons to ease the strain on rifle production. I'd love to see a copy of the French Lanchester manual! I managed to track down the 1942 manual and also the exceptionally rare 1941 manual. Below is one of the photos which formed the basis of the lines drawing in the 1942 Naval user manual BR 832. Note the gun he's holding.... If anyone has any Lanchester questions, I can't guarantee I'll know the answer but always love a chat, so ping them over on the Lanchester discussion group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sensei Posted October 16, 2024 Report Share Posted October 16, 2024 This may be of interest: When Churchill became Prime Minister: “Colonel Dudley Clarke, an officer of the General Staff, thought of guerrilla warfare and remembered the Boer Commandoes…There was much about the effort that was grimly hilarious. Churchill had proposed that each of the twenty thousand “Leopards” be equipped with a Tommy gun, and it turned out that there were exactly forty Tommy guns available in the whole of Britain. Only half a dozen boats could be found to ferry the raiders across the Channel, and in two of those the engines failed. When it was decided that the Commandos should blacken their faces in night action, no black greasepaint could be found in the entire military establishment. It had to be bought from a Wardour Street costumer.” Farago, Ladislas. (1961) Burn After Reading The Espionage History of WWII. Walker and Co., NY. p. 83. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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