Seeking Advice on M1 Thompson with Rewelded Receiver

[NavyEngineer]

I recently purchased an M1 Thompson, knowing that it had significant pitting, but unaware that the receiver had been welded.  The photos offered by the seller, who said he has been a MG Dealer for several decades, only showed the exterior of the receiver, and were not clear enough to show the discoloration to the finish over the welded portions.  Before purchasing, I specifically asked the seller if this was a rewelded receiver, to which he replied "It is not a reweld. By redone I mean the finish was redone on the firearm."  Upon receipt, and inspection of the interior of the receiver, it appeared to me that this was a reweld.  I asked the seller if he would accept a return, since the work on the receiver was far more than a simple refinish, as he had told me before the purchase.  He refused, and stated "I'm sorry how you feel about the gun.  As for "rewled " in the industry a reweld is where a gun has been demilled and then rewelded and put back into service and often the sections and serial number do not match because it was demilled.

This piece was never demilled and taken out of service and rewelded to then make it a machine gun.  It was used by the IRS and fixed (welded) due to the pitting on the steel in certain areas.  These Tommy guns were a very soft metal and often pitted due to the elements, finish, and storage.  A couple areas were pitted that the metal had to have a piece added (and machined) to insure the integrity of the firearm. This was reflected in the listing and certainly the pitting was shown in the pictures and done in the 60's to preserve the weapons system.  I as well as one of my employees tested it upon buying it to make sure it ran and had no issues which it did."

I told the seller I was not sure if it would be safe for me to fire with the areas of metal near the welds missing, and again asked for a return.  He refused, but offered to pay up to $500 for repairs if I wished, stating "I am sorry that you feel this firearm was misrepresented.  We will have to agree to disagree on the "reweld" portion and how that was communicated.

Yes, you may find a gunsmith if you like to complete a repair which you seem to feel is necessary.  Our shop (myself included) did fire this Thompson machine gun as we do every gun to make sure not only that it performs as expected but is safe.  This Tommy gun performed flawlessly and was cleaned and not re-oiled based on your choice.  I am a very large machine gun dealer and no firearm leaves here if safety is an issue with the firearm or upon inspection of it.  This gun is good to go and I suggest you go out and have some fun with it.

As always we pride ourselves on what we sell.  If you like I will pay up to $500 to make this gun to your liking from a gunsmith of your choice in your area.  This certainly is a first but I want to make you happy; although not exceedingly expensive in the machine gun world nonetheless you spent hard earned money on it.  I don't have much profit in this firearm at all but will extend you this offer in good grace.

Just send a copy of the receipt and I will mail you a check.  However, do realize you can fire it and enjoy what it has to offer also.  It is a fun gun with an extremely low cyclic rate and certainly as I said before I wish this gun would talk.  With the IRS for all those years it certainly has a bunch of stories I'm sure."

The seller told me that the IRS serial number means that this machinegun was used by that agency for many years, but my understanding is that the IRS number placed on the top of the receiver is simply used when the firearm's original serial number was not legible, which is certainly the case with this firearm.

Since the seller is not willing to accept a return, I am seeking the advice on the experts here on the best path forward.  I sold my USGI Savage Thompson a few years ago, and am just looking for a reliable shooter.  The bore looks fine, as does the trigger frame and bolt.  However, I am concerned with the areas in the receiver where metal is missing.  Additionally, the discoloration around the barrel leads me to suspect the barrel is welded, rather than threaded, in place.  For those experienced with these submachineguns, does it appear safe to shoot, or would you seek repairs before firing it?  Many thanks in advance!

[StrangeRanger]

Personally, I wouldn't hit a dog in the ass with that thing.  Be that as it may, it clearly is not what you were told you were getting. 

Contact your attorney.

And don't be afraid of outing the dealer.  You would be doing a public service

 

[TD.]

Agree with StrangeRanger, above!

This one takes my breath away. I would like to see the pictures and description that you were provided prior to buying it. If there is ever a poster child for seeing a machine gun in person before spending your hard-earned money, this is it! I hope you did not pay very much. 

If mine (and I cannot imagine it in my safe), I would send it to Board member PK. for his expert opinion about being able to safely fire it. Perhaps PK. can offer a preliminary opinion based on the pictures you posted. 

I am curious as to the location of the IRS serial number. Perhaps the receiver could be separated by someone with the proper license and better receiver pieces could be affixed. This process, if even legal, is way above my pay grade. Again, seek professional advice  

[deerslayer]

If you got it a cheap as a shooter it will work fine.  I've welded quite a few post sample Thompsons and as long as you do good job they work fine

[colt21a]

The dealer is a jack off WITH THAT RESPONSE AND HE KNOWS IT. AND SOLD YOU A FREAKING BOAT ANCHOR.GET A REFUND. FROM THE SUPPOSED HONEST DEALER.  ONE OF THE WORSE I HAVE SEEN IN OVER 50 PLUS YEARS. He knew exactly what he was selling and offing off to someone. return refund. don't accept a p.o.s. FROM ANYONE.

[NavyEngineer]

The seller's description was "a full auto (machine gun) .45 ACP M1A1 Thompson made my Savage. This gun is on a form 3 and the first transfer to your dealer is free. This gun's upper receiver was redone due to pitting and registered before the May 19th 1986 ban. It was essentially saved and now a great "shooter" without affecting the collector value. The Savage lower sill has its numbers and the upper does not due to being redone. The only number on the top is the is the hand stamped IRS number (serial number)."

The description, and the pitting that was visible, caused me to ask if this machinegun was a reweld.  I quoted the seller's response.  Believe me, I certainly realize that I should have asked for emailed clear photos of the inside and outside of the receiver, or simply passed on what I thought was a transferable USGI M1A1 shooter grade machinegun with some significant cosmetic issues.  I do feel that the seller misrepresented it by not disclosing the fact that the receiver had been welded after I specifically asked him that, and told him so, and requested a refund two times.  He has refused to take it back, so I am simply trying to determine if it is safe for me to fire as is, or if it can be made so with repairs.

[Bridgeport28A1]

The Thompson community needs to know who the 20 plus year Class 3 dealer is. 

I am trying to figure out how he determined it was a Savage manufactured gun. I could not see a visible S or AOC in the underside of the front of the mag well, no FJA or GeG stamps could be seen in the pitting.

Good luck, I guessing it wasn’t sold at welded Thompson pricing.

[Lewisfan]

I saw a similar gun years ago that came out of an estate in OK. Not sure if it is the same gun. The one I saw looked like a cut gun that was put back together with JB Weld.  If I recall correctly it was amnesty registered.  

The IRS number is added during the Amnesty when there was not a good serial number to use. Nice story about being a former IRS gun.  Not buying that bit of creative writing for a second. 

An xray will tell you if it is rewelded with a new section of steel. It clearly looks like it was.  You can spend a bunch of money on lawyers, but you may come out ahead sending it somewhere to get the whole receiver (and gun) re-done. The only rub may be the serial number with a complete refinish. If there's a concern about washing out the current SN you may be able to contact ATF and get a letter allowing you to re-engrave the IRS number on the refinished receiver.  

Either way, you should 100% out who this dealer is. 

[Chip]

Does the paperwork match the hand stamped IRS serial number?  And Savage the manufacture?

[NavyEngineer]

Unfortunately, it was not sold at welded Thompson pricing, although it was priced lower than USGI M1A1 Thompsons in better condition - I thought it was just heavily buffed during the refinishing.  The dealer who I exclusively corresponded with was Mr. Bob Peacock, owner of https://www.hsldfirearms.com/about/ "Founded in 2011, High Speed Low Drag, LLC, is Northeast Ohio’s premier modern day firearms dealer. We specialize in Class III/SOT products while offering an exceptional purchasing experience."  His responses to me, including where he finally disclosed that metal was welded to the receiver, are in quotation marks in my earlier posts.

The paperwork only lists "Thompson" as the manufacturer, with no address listed, and matches the hand-stamped IRS serial number on the top of the receiver.  It's unclear to me how the seller determined Savage manufactured the receiver, or that the welded repairs were made in the 1960s.  I know an X-ray would confirm what clearly appear to be welded repairs, but I'm not sure if that would help to determine if it is safe to shoot, or if further weld repairs are needed.  At this point, I think money would be better spent in ensuring it's a safe shooter than hiring an attorney.  I know PK's work is highly respected, but think I've read he typically is pretty backlogged?  I'm not sure who else would be capable of and willing to try to redo this properly.

[Lewisfan]

Did you happen to see paperwork prior to buying the gun to see where it came from before the guy you bought it from?

[colt21a]

 

If it is a problem get refund. or 50% of money back $500 bucks is nothing... "His dream to rip off customers" is the bizz byline.

THANKS FOR LETTING EVERYBODY KNOW HERE.

[BillyDixon]

actually ive seen 2-3 of these rebuilt relics in my life time, way back in the 1960s  some one found a pile of these thompsons in a scrap pile at a scrap yard that bought scrap from a near by military base, they had tourch cuts  thru areas of the recievers, now think that before 1968 these would not be considered firearms,  some were evan offered for sale in shotgun news, im sure that many were rebuilt as thompson parts at that time were dirt cheap, new barrels inn wrop for 5-10 dollars,  when the GCA of 1968 went into affectt in nov. 1968 some of these were registered , since most had defaced or missing SNs the IRS assigned a new SNthat you or they would stamp on it. my opinon is they were crap then as you could find a lot nicer stuff,  i beleve these would be safe to shoot but not worth anything, i did have a friend who made a cut away  model of his, do a FOI request on it, my opinon it repaire scrap metal that got registered in 1968,  for whats its worth im 80 years old and been messing with this stuff since i was 10, just sayn

[Countryboy77]

It doesn't sound like you have mu h legal recourse ,unfortunately you did not do your due diligence and made a bad buy. That's why it's important to learn about what your buying and request in writing some sort of 1 week inspection and if not agreed run.If you can go visit and if you cannot ask for lots of pictures.Any honest person has no issues sending photos .Take the $500 and put it up for sale.Get what you can back out of it ,or shoot the s--t out of it and enjoy it till the 1 day you sell it,however I wouldn't ever be happy with it and would sell it off honestly to somone who knows what they are getting,you might be surprised by how much you get sell it around tax time.That barrel looks like its part of a reweld and you won't be changing it easily if you get a squib or  chanber wears out of headspace and stops firing.Barrel would have to be recut and who knows if it coukd even be done.Have a new Nose section welded on.I wouldn't want to have to deal with any of the problems of itand would NEVER shoot it,just pass it along honestly to somone with more money than Brains.

[Got Uzi]

I’m almost certain this gun sold at one of the auction houses earlier this year. I’m sorry to say but this is most defiantly a case of a non educated buyer and a dealer that saw it. I have talked with the dealer at shows and have caught him in BS stories before but realized quickly there was no point in trying to correct him as he was always going to be right. One example was bragging he had “one of six original and transferable MP5-40’s built by HK in the country” funny thing is….the 40 S&W wasn’t developed until the late 80’s after the 86 cut off and even then it would have been a pre sample (or perhaps it could have turned due to recent changes-but this conversation was 2 years ago)

An X-ray of the gun or at the very least a magnaflux test to check for crack/separations and such is needed. I personally have some ideas on that gun and how to make it cosmetically correct but I’ll keep those to myself at this point as I would want to study the gun more. 

[Got Uzi]

I’m not sure the barrel was “welded in” but rather that could have had a dewat hole/pin done at one point as that would have been right in line where the chamber is and that was a common thing for awhile-putting a pin in the chamber. 

[Got Uzi]

FOUND IT!! 
 

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_N__IRS_NUMBER_REGISTERED_M1_THOMPSON_MACHINE_GUN_-lot594700.aspx

[timkel]

"Overall finish and appearance is moderately pitted on upper receiver under matte refinish"

What an understatement.

[signal_4]

2 hours ago, Got Uzi said:

FOUND IT!! 
 

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_N__IRS_NUMBER_REGISTERED_M1_THOMPSON_MACHINE_GUN_-lot594700.aspx

“The Savage-manufactured lower assembly retains its number, 1189226.”

that’s got to be a typo 

[johnsonlmg41]

Get your $500 back if you can, and chalk the rest up to "experience".    If it were something rifle caliber I'd do some test firing with a string before I'd shoot it, but with the low power of a Thompson, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it.  After all, the barrel is new so provided the rest of it functions you should be good to go.   Believe it or not, there are guys that can make that look new again, get rid of the pitting, re-engrave it, etc. but the cost would probably not be worth it.  IIRC I considered bidding on that, but that was not my price point. 

You really have no legal recourse IMO.  Depending on what you paid, eventually you will get your money back out of it in time.  There are a lot of guns that were cut in half in the registry.....and we are actually thankful they are there.  I have seen a lot worse, and then there are guys that paid money and got nothing...totally scammed.  You have a registered gun in very poor condition, but it probably does, or will work with a bit of effort.  All is not lost.

[1gewehr]

I also seem to remember some of these guns advertised in Shotgun News sometime in the late 70's, or early 80's.  The price was so low that most folks I knew thought that it had to be a scam.  

I do think that Morphy Auctions should have done a better job of describing the gun.  I can easily see from your photos of the deep pitting that if there was worse pitting, it would have needed to be welded up.

I once had a re-welded M1A1 that looked like it had just come from Savage.  I never had any doubts that it was safe to fire.  before the '86 ban, there were reputable builders who sold re-welded parts kits that were perfectly fine for shooting, and in some cases looked better than the factory guns.  For this gun, I'd recommend that an expert smith look at it and verify that it's safe to shoot.  It most likely is.  But if you shoot it and it falls apart, your troubles would multiply.

[Robert Henley]

20 hours ago, NavyEngineer said:

I do feel that the seller misrepresented it by not disclosing the fact that the receiver had been welded after I specifically asked him that, and told him so, and requested a refund two times. 

Assuming you can prove you asked and his response (via documentation), it seems clear to me it was misrepresented which I would think would give rise to a legal cause of action.  Depending on how much you paid for it, it may or may not be worth hiring an attorney to pursue.  I would think an attorney would demand a full refund or threaten to file a civil lawsuit for misrepresenting the gun.  In any event, a good lesson for potential buyers to always get good pictures of the inside of the receiver or inspect in person.  Good luck whatever you decide.

[Robert Henley]

"Founded in 2011, High Speed Low Drag, LLC, is Northeast Ohio’s premier modern day firearms dealer. We specialize in Class III/SOT products while offering an exceptional purchasing experience.

Bob Peacock, President and CEO

My goal is to exceed your expectations in all ways, from the quality of the gun you buy to the knowledge I impart to you about that gun.”

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The above from the stated seller's website.  Wow, that's some claim given this particular gun and the buyer's follow-up with the seller.

[Doug Quaid]

what I see there is two halves of a Thompson receiver that were sitting in a scrap pile in some snowy, rainy place like OH for about 5 or 10 years

then welded together, with the usual Sears tig welder bloppy toothpaste weld

Guns that are that horrible don't come out of any prison, police or military armory.   That's a scrap gun.

both the top and sides are showing weld metal clean through, it's obviously a reweld

take it to a shop and get it x-rayed, then tell the seller that you are going to get a full refund or else it's lawyer time 

 

Edited November 24 by Doug Quaid

[Rekraps]

18 hours ago, BillyDixon said:

actually ive seen 2-3 of these rebuilt relics in my life time, way back in the 1960s  some one found a pile of these thompsons in a scrap pile at a scrap yard that bought scrap from a near by military base, they had tourch cuts  thru areas of the recievers, now think that before 1968 these would not be considered firearms,  some were evan offered for sale in shotgun news, im sure that many were rebuilt as thompson parts at that time were dirt cheap, new barrels inn wrop for 5-10 dollars,  when the GCA of 1968 went into affectt in nov. 1968 some of these were registered , since most had defaced or missing SNs the IRS assigned a new SNthat you or they would stamp on it. my opinon is they were crap then as you could find a lot nicer stuff,  i beleve these would be safe to shoot but not worth anything, i did have a friend who made a cut away  model of his, do a FOI request on it, my opinon it repaire scrap metal that got registered in 1968,  for whats its worth im 80 years old and been messing with this stuff since i was 10, just sayn

Your response sounds the most logical of all posts. These guns were way over engineered which means this can most likely be shot (i.e. shooter). 

Personally, I am a bit shocked anyone would purchase a NFA SMG that looks like this one. Clearly this gun has major cosmetic, and possibly structural issues. In my mind there is no collectability value at all, just a shooter. The gun looks like it was stored underwater for years... and I'd be surprised if the whole gun were not a mismatch rebuild. 

If you would like a third or fourth opinion, you could also contact John Andrewski. He knows this stuff well and will give you an honest assessment.